Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by SnarkySnax »

Iamnothere wrote:AND ANOTHER THING! (Sorry, it's been a while, I need to vent lol.)

Does anyone else remember when BraBar was shown the thread about her in here, and she was basically saying that we were either just racists, or, would jokingly imply that we were so stupid we had to have mental disabilities or were neuro divergent? She would say it without actually saying it? Which is incredibly ableist, especially considering her COT crew has people who have disabilities or are neuro divergent, and who speak out against attitudes like that. I remember being grossed out by her quickly slipping that in a few times when she was having her rants about it. Apparently anyone who disagrees with BraBar, is racist or cognitively disabled in her eyes, or something. And then would say we were the cruel ones.
Pepperidge Farm remembers…

BraBar stopped just short of calling us “r*****ed” then tried to walk it back by essentially saying she wasn’t calling all “mentally deficient” people racists, but all racists were definitely mentally deficient. Ableist logic totally checks out. Image

These people are nothing but a bunch of hypocritical mean girls who gave themselves permission to be online bullies under the guise of social justice, but how very dare anyone criticize them for their own prejudices, blind spots and bigoted behavior, because that’s just racism!

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by stormpie »

Mako Shark wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:07 am
LadyViorica wrote:The thing that gets me about Brazilian Baroness, M&D, and the rest is that they want/expect grace for themselves when they never extend it to anyone else. Maybe BB's cheongsam was a gift from a Chinese friend. Or maybe she wore it to a Chinese wedding. I wouldn't know, and I wouldn't make a callout post because I have no idea of the context. But if someone else wore one, you know BB would jump to tear a strip off them. Same with M&D - they don't think their/their friends' engagement with HP deserves criticism, but they're fine with others getting piled on for the same thing. They, as a group, clearly see themselves as arbiters of what is and what isn't okay, and they see no hypocrisy in making callout posts for others and then getting upset when others do callouts for them.
I get the impression that they are all quite fragile in the face of criticism in general, especially M&D.

I don’t know if anyone else here participates in the general sewing Subreddit, but M&D have posted some of their makes there once in a blue moon, most recently a few weeks ago with Dionysus’s Edwardian Dandy suit. They were fine while getting all the usual hug-box comments that is typical in the subreddit, but clearly bristled when a few people pointed out (correctly) that it would have looked significantly more polished if they had pressed their seams. At one point they tried to argue that they had but it just got wrinkled in their suitcase (I’m not aware of a phenomenon where suitcase wrinkles only manifest as non-flat seams), and then they just started snapping and saying they shouldn’t be judged for choosing to enjoy extra child-free time at a bed & breakfast over ironing and childishly telling those offering constructive criticism to “come iron it yourself if you’re bothered.”
I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way they will get ironed is if I do do it myself. That’s constructive criticism if you want to get better you need to listen to it

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Secret_name »

Brazilian baroness has had problematic opinions for a long time, I was honestly surprised when I saw her pivot to CallOutTube. Don’t put me down on record for this because it was a long time ago and my memory isn’t perfect, but I’m pretty sure I remember her defending VintageEgyptologist when her spot got (rightly) blown up for being a colonialist fantasy

SnarkySnax wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:47 pm
Iamnothere wrote:AND ANOTHER THING! (Sorry, it's been a while, I need to vent lol.)

Does anyone else remember when BraBar was shown the thread about her in here, and she was basically saying that we were either just racists, or, would jokingly imply that we were so stupid we had to have mental disabilities or were neuro divergent? She would say it without actually saying it? Which is incredibly ableist, especially considering her COT crew has people who have disabilities or are neuro divergent, and who speak out against attitudes like that. I remember being grossed out by her quickly slipping that in a few times when she was having her rants about it. Apparently anyone who disagrees with BraBar, is racist or cognitively disabled in her eyes, or something. And then would say we were the cruel ones.
Pepperidge Farm remembers…

BraBar stopped just short of calling us “r*****ed” then tried to walk it back by essentially saying she wasn’t calling all “mentally deficient” people racists, but all racists were definitely mentally deficient. Ableist logic totally checks out. Image

These people are nothing but a bunch of hypocritical mean girls who gave themselves permission to be online bullies under the guise of social justice, but how very dare anyone criticize them for their own prejudices, blind spots and bigoted behavior, because that’s just racism!

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Iamnothere »

Secret_name wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 pm
Brazilian baroness has had problematic opinions for a long time, I was honestly surprised when I saw her pivot to CallOutTube. Don’t put me down on record for this because it was a long time ago and my memory isn’t perfect, but I’m pretty sure I remember her defending VintageEgyptologist when her spot got (rightly) blown up for being a colonialist fantasy

SnarkySnax wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:47 pm

Pepperidge Farm remembers…

BraBar stopped just short of calling us “r*****ed” then tried to walk it back by essentially saying she wasn’t calling all “mentally deficient” people racists, but all racists were definitely mentally deficient. Ableist logic totally checks out. Image

These people are nothing but a bunch of hypocritical mean girls who gave themselves permission to be online bullies under the guise of social justice, but how very dare anyone criticize them for their own prejudices, blind spots and bigoted behavior, because that’s just racism!
Looks like she, sewstine, Maayankraj Singh, Abby, among others still follow and engage in her content. So, some of COT. And some who are not in COT. I've read some not so great stuff about her husband and her, outside of their orientalism/colonization cosplays. I think that's been covered around here somewhere, before, tho

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by herewego2 »

VintageEgyptologist definitely seems to be taking their interests further than others. I would rather COT talk about how that is problematic than call mid-Victorian fashions enslavercore or telling a non-reenactor they're cosplaying a slaveowner just because they made a dress.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Secret_name »

LOL you mean how they essentially broke the Yale Egyptology department for several years because he was her advisor and she an undergrad who was promoted up to faculty under his watch while he was still married to someone else?

Yeeeeaaaaah they got run out of academia but luckily (for them) found out that HC/vintage people are clueless enough to buy into their thjng

Iamnothere wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:18 pm
Secret_name wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 pm
Brazilian baroness has had problematic opinions for a long time, I was honestly surprised when I saw her pivot to CallOutTube. Don’t put me down on record for this because it was a long time ago and my memory isn’t perfect, but I’m pretty sure I remember her defending VintageEgyptologist when her spot got (rightly) blown up for being a colonialist fantasy


Looks like she, sewstine, Maayankraj Singh, Abby, among others still follow and engage in her content. So, some of COT. And some who are not in COT. I've read some not so great stuff about her husband and her, outside of their orientalism/colonization cosplays. I think that's been covered around here somewhere, before, tho

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Iamnothere »

Secret_name wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:46 pm
LOL you mean how they essentially broke the Yale Egyptology department for several years because he was her advisor and she an undergrad who was promoted up to faculty under his watch while he was still married to someone else?

Yeeeeaaaaah they got run out of academia but luckily (for them) found out that HC/vintage people are clueless enough to buy into their thjng

Iamnothere wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:18 pm


Looks like she, sewstine, Maayankraj Singh, Abby, among others still follow and engage in her content. So, some of COT. And some who are not in COT. I've read some not so great stuff about her husband and her, outside of their orientalism/colonization cosplays. I think that's been covered around here somewhere, before, tho
Yep, that and the being terrible to their students, and the whole power dynamic he had over VE, as she was his student. Many levels of WTF with those two. We could take BraBar's lead and dub them colonizer Barbie and Ken

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by popmypopcorn »

Iamnothere wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:43 pm
With those same info graphics being shared by everyone, it puts a weird social pressure to also HAVE to share them, lest it gets called out or something. I am supportive of being vocal about things, but also, it's been a really hard few years for people, and everyone I know of is getting some level of depression and burnout. Sharing every bad thing constantly is not good for the poster's mental health, nor the viewer's. Therapists, advocates, etc, even they have to step back from it now and again. I know some who've ditched social media and the news for the most part, because it's too much for them to cope with right now.
Unarguably! Unfortunately calloututbe takes too much attention away from other costubers, who actually create inspiring contents and not jus drama! Like Lee-Am, who had a fixing vid of her bustle overdress, and she gained lots of well deserved praise from others, who were intimidated by the tricky bib-front closure. But now observing Lee-Am's construction they feel encouraged to create their own version in different color, fabric and trimming! Kudos for her! <3
Also, Nicole finished the Gonzo suit and Rachel made 15 fictional characters' outfits.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by bluehairedpossum »

Honestly I don’t want to stir sh*t but I’m so tired of the VE hate. Why didn’t anyone ask actual Egyptians - as in, the ones living in Egypt - how they feel about her? Probably because we all know they don’t really care what someone wears when visiting. If someone showed up in my country wearing sh*t from a hundred years ago, even dressed as an oppressor (and I’m saying this as an ethnic minority in a country that survived numerous occupations) I genuinely don’t think anyone would give a f*ck - especially if their work made people interested in my country and potentially brought some tourists in.

There’s a single article where it’s suggested that Egyptian archeologists question her work, but they’re not quoted directly, and there’s just as many local Egyptology scholars that she interacts with and they don’t seem to mind (one of them being the professor the article mentions). Not to mention she actually has done solid work and discoveries with the Moalla Survey Project which according to Wiki was “under the auspices of the Egyptian Ministry of State for Antiquities”.

Most of the accusations focus heavily on her clothing, but those claims are usually made by Americans, and people who don’t take into account that things such as leather boots, linen or toned down colors are genuinely useful tools to dealing with the difficult conditions of the field.

The misconduct sh*t is almost 10 years old now and is honestly some stone cold tea, or maybe I’m too European to see why it’s still relevant today (speaking of which, there’s even a Yale News article in which Egyptology students complain about how Yale handled the situation and some apparently dropped out after the guy’s suspension because there was literally nobody left to teach them).

Honestly the thing that actually does bother me is how little she shows of local workers, but also, it’s her Instagram and if she wants it too focus on pretty pictures while educating people on something she’s passionate about, go for it, I can follow other people for different type of content. It’s not much different from lifestyle influencers selling a curated version of their lives.

To sum it up, unless I see actual Egyptians - as in actually experiencing the effects of colonialism everyday and not living 1000s of miles away- denounce her, be it people from the same field or whoever stumbles upon her account, I’ll give her benefit of a doubt. So far Egyptians seemed keen to collaborate her both when it comes to archeology and tourism (the Nile trip, the cancelling of which probably resulted in financial loss for the Egyptian hotels, boats and tour guides involved. Well done).

The whole situation smells of Americentrism to me (similarly to Americans getting offended over cultural appropriation when countries they’re offended for don’t really care).

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by elkun »

bluehairedpossum wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:42 am
The whole situation smells of Americentrism to me (similarly to Americans getting offended over cultural appropriation when countries they’re offended for don’t really care).
You've made a point I have been thinking a lot about. I find it exhausting at this point how heavily the whole debate about culture, cultural appropriation and other topics all the way to human rights issues is dominated by Americans. Do we hear how actual people from China, Japan, India or Egypt feel about people recreating their traditional costumes in other countries? Not really. Mostly what I see in the costuber community (+insta and other social media) is americans of various backgrounds (most of them not even immigrants themselves and have never lived for a long time in their "native" country) telling everybody how people of various cultures should engage with each other.
It's one thing were people debate their own country's and community's issues and there's some good that can come out it but they basically claimed the ownership of an entire set of complex issues. On the other thread people like to complain about lack of some costubers' credits to call themselves historians but call out tube basically proclaimed themselves an authority on morals on all social issues based on instagram posts, and people kinda take them at their word.
I don't mean that they don't have a point in some cases but the amount of sway community has given them is rather confusing to me.

I have a few friends and acquaintances who are into japanese kimonos (I'm using the word broadly and incorrectly for all kinds of traditional clothes) and they seem to have a very nice and peaceful international community. They wear kimonos to a lot of events organised by Japanese cultural center here and they post quite a bit on insta and I've never seen an asian person express any negativity towards them. Or like I follow figure skating closely and before covid they would invite a lot of international skaters to skating shows in Japan and organizers would always dress at least the girls in kimonos for photoshoots and media. It didn't look like there was any negativity towards that.

Also if people are saying that we shouldn't expect PoC to carry the burden of explaining their culture to others (and it's understandable) and people of other cultures are not allowed to participate even with good intentions who is supposed to provide some kind of balance to the "sexy halloween costume" crowd? Those people won't care about their costume being not accurate or feelings being hurt. Right now it looks like people are pushing out those who would try to be "good" community members but either made mistakes (or are perceived this way) or are too scared of making a mistake and be dragged publically but people who don't care happily proceed as they were.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by andipales »

elkun wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:30 am
Or like I follow figure skating closely and before covid they would invite a lot of international skaters to skating shows in Japan and organizers would always dress at least the girls in kimonos for photoshoots and media. It didn't look like there was any negativity towards that.
Also a figure skating fan here and just to add to your point, Deniss Vasiļjevs just won a European bronze to quite some (well deserved) adoration with a costume inspired by Samurai armour. He's Latvian, is trained by a Swiss man, and shares a rink with just about every other nationality on the planet (including his current rink mate, Shoma Uno, who is Japanese) regularly. Skating is such a vastly multi-national community that I don't think it's ever occurred to anyone that taking inspiration from other nationalities traditional dress was a bad thing, it's just something widely done and no one even bats a lid at it. I really wish that was the case with historical costuming too, because it should not be as difficult as the costube community make it, but here we are.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Notmycup »

I think a lot of mix-up is happening from the very word "costume". It's historical costuming community and we all agree that nationality is not a costume. There's a difference between a garment that used to be worn universally across certain territories/continents and a garment tied to national identity and still worn.

But, and that's a big but, most people want to share their cultures. And clothes is only a part of it. How about food, holidays, traditions? There are events and educational organizations dedicated to spread the knowledge. Our traditional embroidered shirts were brought to Fashion Weeks and gifted to celebrities as a way to share the culture. Sexy Halloween costumes are not the same as learning about and respecting other countries' heritage.

That being said, do people who find mandarin collars problematic also not eat Lo Mein or tacos or pierogies? That's also cultural appropriation, isn't it?

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by itiswhatitis35 »

That being said, do people who find mandarin collars problematic also not eat Lo Mein or tacos or pierogies? That's also cultural appropriation, isn't it?
Or to use a makeup example (this is guru gossip after all) -- Lunar New Year has become a huge thing in makeup. I'm sure the companies love it, since it gives them a money making opportunity in the otherwise deadzone between Christmas and the northern hemisphere springtime. It's been completely commercialized and I see white girls all over YouTube talking about how they love the tiger stripe packaging and heavy-duty emphasis on red lipsticks and gold highlighters. That's pretty cultural appropriation-y, where's the outcry about that?

For the record I don't have a problem with it at all. I wouldn't have a problem with BraBar wearing a cheongsam either if she hadn't been otherwise so obnoxious about the appropriation subject. It's hypocrisy I don't like, I'm all about appreciating and sharing culture.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by popmypopcorn »

Being Hungarian I could wear something traditional: Turkish on mondays, English on tuesdays, Mongolian on wednesdays, German on thursdays, African on fridays, Russian on saturdays and Italian on sundays (and I could start a new week with brand new nationalties). Suck it up, I have 0 f@cks left to give who wears what. Most people are reasonable human beings! The problem is the very loud, hyper-sensitive narcissists who have no idea about history, fashion or the real world (outside of their precious feelings) in general, can't abstract and completly blind for the nuances. Unfortunately they're not just USA residents, but can be found everywhere under the mantle of "the right cause". Fortunately they're rather funny at the same time and always a solid laugh!

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by statsdeebo »

Notmycup wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:17 am
I think a lot of mix-up is happening from the very word "costume". It's historical costuming community and we all agree that nationality is not a costume. There's a difference between a garment that used to be worn universally across certain territories/continents and a garment tied to national identity and still worn.

But, and that's a big but, most people want to share their cultures. And clothes is only a part of it. How about food, holidays, traditions? There are events and educational organizations dedicated to spread the knowledge. Our traditional embroidered shirts were brought to Fashion Weeks and gifted to celebrities as a way to share the culture. Sexy Halloween costumes are not the same as learning about and respecting other countries' heritage.

That being said, do people who find mandarin collars problematic also not eat Lo Mein or tacos or pierogies? That's also cultural appropriation, isn't it?
Mutually beneficial cultural exchanges are a beautiful thing! There really is nothing better than seeing someone learning about and enjoying your culture/traditions/language/food (the best part of discovering other cultures is the cuisine, change my mind). But like I said before, it's all about context and nuance and this whole discussion goes beyond culture appropriation = bad or cultural appropriation = good, because, like everything in life, it's waaaaay more nuanced than that and the when/how/why/where of cultural exchanges do matter.

also, "sexy halloween costumes" related to a traditional or cultural garment or identity is, I would like to believe, universally acknowledged to be at best, ridiculous, and at worst, exceptionally disrespectful. I said before that I (personally! can't speak for everyone obviously) don't care about ancient egyptian costumes and I stand by that and I just googled "sexy ancient egyptian costume" and thought we could all have a laugh together: https://bit.ly/3IaADow the Ankh staff, the bodysuit, the gladiator sandals are absolutely sending me. And as a palate cleanser, Tanaka's theatrical recreation (which is gorgeous and obviously took a lot of research): https://bit.ly/3nCr61U

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Iamnothere »

popmypopcorn wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:10 am
Iamnothere wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:43 pm
With those same info graphics being shared by everyone, it puts a weird social pressure to also HAVE to share them, lest it gets called out or something. I am supportive of being vocal about things, but also, it's been a really hard few years for people, and everyone I know of is getting some level of depression and burnout. Sharing every bad thing constantly is not good for the poster's mental health, nor the viewer's. Therapists, advocates, etc, even they have to step back from it now and again. I know some who've ditched social media and the news for the most part, because it's too much for them to cope with right now.
Unarguably! Unfortunately calloututbe takes too much attention away from other costubers, who actually create inspiring contents and not jus drama! Like Lee-Am, who had a fixing vid of her bustle overdress, and she gained lots of well deserved praise from others, who were intimidated by the tricky bib-front closure. But now observing Lee-Am's construction they feel encouraged to create their own version in different color, fabric and trimming! Kudos for her! <3
Also, Nicole finished the Gonzo suit and Rachel made 15 fictional characters' outfits.
Rachel's video was so fun. I really like when she does closet cosplays like that. She has such a cool style. V. Birchwood also finished her berry dress, which is adorable on her. Loepsie did a review on her makes from last year that was fun.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Stitch_in_Time »

SnarkySnax wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:47 pm

Pepperidge Farm remembers…

BraBar stopped just short of calling us “r*****ed” then tried to walk it back by essentially saying she wasn’t calling all “mentally deficient” people racists, but all racists were definitely mentally deficient. Ableist logic totally checks out. Image

These people are nothing but a bunch of hypocritical mean girls who gave themselves permission to be online bullies under the guise of social justice, but how very dare anyone criticize them for their own prejudices, blind spots and bigoted behavior, because that’s just racism!
Oh, for crying out loud. Don't use the "r" word, even with asterisks. There is no reason for you to use it in general and especially when you are accusing someone of *almost* but *not really* saying it.

Would it have been more elegant if Brazilian Baroness had said "willfully ignorant" and "deliberately uncomprehending?" Perhaps, but she is right that there is a lot of racist speech on this site. Some people like to see how close they can get to saying something racist without getting called on it. I'm really tired of playing "guess whether this poster is a racist or just an asshole."

Also, I think you are exaggerating the danger of a small number of creators with small followings who have decided that the time is right to speak up against racism, homophobia, and yes, even ableism. They haven't cornered the market in hypocracy, there's still plenty to go around.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by Stitch_in_Time »

bluehairedpossum wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:42 am

Most of the accusations focus heavily on her clothing, but those claims are usually made by Americans, and people who don’t take into account that things such as leather boots, linen or toned down colors are genuinely useful tools to dealing with the difficult conditions of the field.

The misconduct sh*t is almost 10 years old now and is honestly some stone cold tea, or maybe I’m too European to see why it’s still relevant today (speaking of which, there’s even a Yale News article in which Egyptology students complain about how Yale handled the situation and some apparently dropped out after the guy’s suspension because there was literally nobody left to teach them).

(...)

The whole situation smells of Americentrism to me (similarly to Americans getting offended over cultural appropriation when countries they’re offended for don’t really care).
Yes, there are some materials and colors that work well for whatever conditions you may find yourself in, but as a modern person doing a modern job you want to be careful not to dress like a parody of your profession. The more vintage pieces you wear, the closer you get to being seen as a dilettante.

Personally, I'm okay if she dresses as a twenties flapper or twenties archaeologist at home, but it gets weird when she does it in Egypt.

The misconduct was significant. I am a fan of Mary Beard, the Classics prof you see on British television, but I cringed hard when she said she didn't see anything wrong with sleeping with one's professor. She learned so much while having romantic flings with her professors. I couldn't help thinking of the poor woman or man sitting next to her in class who didn't get her special advantages. Well, you might say that Mary Beard was from another era, but this stuff has to stop sometime.

I don't know how Yale handled it, but it did need to be handled. Power differentials in relationships, abuse of position, giving jobs and influence to your girlfriend, are outdated. The fact that there was no fresh young scholar to be hired in his place may be because of similar abuses across the field. The tea may be cold, but it's still tea.

As to Americentrism, doing the right thing is hard. It's easier to take a stand if people around you are also doing it. I'm sure there are pockets of progressive people in all countries, but you hear loud, even thoughtful, discussion about it from the Americans on the internet. It is also the case that when people are trying to figure out how to change the status quo for the better, other people are trying to shut them down by exaggerating the things they say and claiming hypocrisy. I'm just saying you shouldn't dismiss the clamor as something stupid.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by hysterically_adq »

So....there is a thread for this talk about cultural appropriation and it’s this sad and lonely thread with no one posting to it:viewtopic.php?t=40474

More than a couple of people have tried to get the conversation back on Nicole’s Gonzo, Rachel’s many makes, and other costube videos but they’re being buried. Before people start going to the moderators maybe we can self moderate and take the cultural appropriation conversation over there, please?

Signed,

a person who contributed to some of the conversation and isn’t innocent of taking the train off the rails.

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Re: Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 5

Post by hysterically_adq »

Iamnothere wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:05 am
Rachel's video was so fun. I really like when she does closet cosplays like that. She has such a cool style. V. Birchwood also finished her berry dress, which is adorable on her. Loepsie did a review on her makes from last year that was fun.
I felt for Rachel when she was close to the end and getting fatigued! 20 closet cosplays could have been two videos. Oof. Not that I didn’t enjoy them.

I particularly like when she does something as random as the beatnik from the Goofy Movie and then looks adorable rocking the look. Not that I don’t always have space for another whiskey grandpa but bring on the surprises!

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