Book Twitter Part 2

[darcybones]

saying that there's no difference between portrayal of fictional gay men and depictions of lesbian sex which include real actresses is disingenuous. i actually come pretty heavily on the "you shouldn't write a marginalized identity's struggle you're not part of" but i can also recognize that in a book it's a very different context than on a porn set where an exploitative industry gets to exploit real live people. i'm not saying there's no harm when it's in a book (there certainly can be) but i am saying that the harm is very different when you start including the real bodies of real people.

[tubeornottube]

saying that there's no difference between portrayal of fictional gay men and depictions of lesbian sex which include real actresses is disingenuous. i actually come pretty heavily on the "you shouldn't write a marginalized identity's struggle you're not part of" but i can also recognize that in a book it's a very different context than on a porn set where an exploitative industry gets to exploit real live people. i'm not saying there's no harm when it's in a book (there certainly can be) but i am saying that the harm is very different when you start including the real bodies of real people.

Oh yes, I agree. The treatment and exploitation of actresses in porn is sickening, and the mentality of the men who watch lesbian porn and think lesbians in real life are in existence for their sexual pleasure is disturbing and puts women in further danger. I understand what you mean now.

[smolante12]

saying that there's no difference between portrayal of fictional gay men and depictions of lesbian sex which include real actresses is disingenuous. i actually come pretty heavily on the "you shouldn't write a marginalized identity's struggle you're not part of" but i can also recognize that in a book it's a very different context than on a porn set where an exploitative industry gets to exploit real live people. i'm not saying there's no harm when it's in a book (there certainly can be) but i am saying that the harm is very different when you start including the real bodies of real people.

idk, i think we've all talked about instances wherein people in the online book community have elevated fictional characters to real people and begin discussing characters outside the contexts of them being objects. this is the same thing to me. it's weird, and it's becoming an actual problem.

[freezedriedfruit]

saying that there's no difference between portrayal of fictional gay men and depictions of lesbian sex which include real actresses is disingenuous. i actually come pretty heavily on the "you shouldn't write a marginalized identity's struggle you're not part of" but i can also recognize that in a book it's a very different context than on a porn set where an exploitative industry gets to exploit real live people. i'm not saying there's no harm when it's in a book (there certainly can be) but i am saying that the harm is very different when you start including the real bodies of real people.

idk, i think we've all talked about instances wherein people in the online book community have elevated fictional characters to real people and begin discussing characters outside the contexts of them being objects. this is the same thing to me. it's weird, and it's becoming an actual problem.

But they're still fictional characters and not real. Speculating how a fictional character would fit into the real world and starting discourse over it isn't the same as the harm done to actual people in the real world.

You can absolutely fetishise an identity because of the media you consume, which turns into fetishising real people with that identity. I've been on the receiving end of this irl and it's absolutely creepy and uncomfortable.

But at the end of the day, women aren't exploiting real life men to make gay porn and sending gay men to hospital for not kissing on demand. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-48555889

We're not saying that it's fine for women to fetishise gay men, we're saying that women who read/write fictional gay romance are not remotely the same as men who create/watch lesbian porn in terms of harm caused.

[SaunteringBackwards]

also, when will people realise that this 'you can only write x sexual identity if you are x identity' thought process is super harmful, not in the least because it basically forcefully outs people?

[smolante12]

also, when will people realise that this 'you can only write x sexual identity if you are x identity' thought process is super harmful, not in the least because it basically forcefully outs people?

because the same ones who say that are the ones who also forget what they did to Isabel Fall.

(also: and this is the last thing i plan to say on that topic specifically. a book cannot make someone homophobic via fetishization. odds are they were already homophobic to begin with. in the same way, reading a thriller or a horror novel cannot make someone fantasize about murdering people. i've said it time and time again, people typically only get this up in arms when there are things concerning sex, but when you make an equivalent statement that centers violence instead of sexuality, people realize how weird they sound to everyone else.)

[freezedriedfruit]

also, when will people realise that this 'you can only write x sexual identity if you are x identity' thought process is super harmful, not in the least because it basically forcefully outs people?

because the same ones who say that are the ones who also forget what they did to Isabel Fall.

(also: and this is the last thing i plan to say on that topic specifically. a book cannot make someone homophobic via fetishization. odds are they were already homophobic to begin with. in the same way, reading a thriller or a horror novel cannot make someone fantasize about murdering people. i've said it time and time again, people typically only get this up in arms when there are things concerning sex, but when you make an equivalent statement that centers violence instead of sexuality, people realize how weird they sound to everyone else.)

I have literally seen people take their yaoi/anime/manga obsession too far to the point where it warps the way they view and treat real life Asians. I have seen with my own two eyes someone point at real life Asian men and project their yaoi fantasies onto them. People can absolutely be influenced by fiction that way.

[smolante12]

because the same ones who say that are the ones who also forget what they did to Isabel Fall.

(also: and this is the last thing i plan to say on that topic specifically. a book cannot make someone homophobic via fetishization. odds are they were already homophobic to begin with. in the same way, reading a thriller or a horror novel cannot make someone fantasize about murdering people. i've said it time and time again, people typically only get this up in arms when there are things concerning sex, but when you make an equivalent statement that centers violence instead of sexuality, people realize how weird they sound to everyone else.)

I have literally seen people take their yaoi/anime/manga obsession too far to the point where it warps the way they view and treat real life Asians. I have seen with my own two eyes someone point at real life Asian men and project their yaoi fantasies onto them. People can absolutely be influenced by fiction that way.

sorry to any of the people they hurt, but those people were just racist and homophobic. there's decades of research that disprove what you're saying. if it were true, everyone would be throwing kids out of windows and killing their relatives over the last 10-ish years since game of thrones was the most watched thing on tv.

[freezedriedfruit]

I have literally seen people take their yaoi/anime/manga obsession too far to the point where it warps the way they view and treat real life Asians. I have seen with my own two eyes someone point at real life Asian men and project their yaoi fantasies onto them. People can absolutely be influenced by fiction that way.

sorry to any of the people they hurt, but those people were just racist and homophobic. there's decades of research that disprove what you're saying. if it were true, everyone would be throwing kids out of windows and killing their relatives over the last 10-ish years since game of thrones was the most watched thing on tv.

Yeah, racist and homophobic in a very specific way in a way that was influenced by the media they consumed. Do you seriously think that those people would act that way in real life if they had never gotten too into manga/anime and built an unrealistic and romanticised picture of what the actual people were like?

Don't know why you're comparing it to literal violence and murder. Sounds like the kneejerk defence that Americans have when their politicians go on about video games causing violence.

[smolante12]

sorry to any of the people they hurt, but those people were just racist and homophobic. there's decades of research that disprove what you're saying. if it were true, everyone would be throwing kids out of windows and killing their relatives over the last 10-ish years since game of thrones was the most watched thing on tv.

Yeah, racist and homophobic in a very specific way in a way that was influenced by the media they consumed. Do you seriously think that those people would act that way in real life if they had never gotten too into manga/anime and built an unrealistic and romanticised picture of what the actual people were like?

Don't know why you're comparing it to literal violence and murder. Sounds like the kneejerk defence that Americans have when their politicians go on about video games causing violence.

yes. non black people who fetishize black people don't need hiphop or rap to serve as the catalyst for their racism, like how people don't need kpop or anime or manga to serve as the catalyst for them being racist or homophobic. people do it every day. my mind isn't going to change on this, and i don't accept testimonials from online accounts. hundreds of peer reviewed articles disprove what you've said. i'm done.

[wrong-writer]

I think gatekeep-gate reaches parodical levels at times.

There are times/topics when it is important that the person presenting them is a part of the groups being represented, but that isn't an absolute requirement 100% of the time, nor should it be.

[onionsocks]

Yeah, racist and homophobic in a very specific way in a way that was influenced by the media they consumed. Do you seriously think that those people would act that way in real life if they had never gotten too into manga/anime and built an unrealistic and romanticised picture of what the actual people were like?

Don't know why you're comparing it to literal violence and murder. Sounds like the kneejerk defence that Americans have when their politicians go on about video games causing violence.

Does anime influence some people to act atrociously? Yes. Just like porn/video games do influence some people to act atrociously. But the problem, as I see it, isn't the media content you consume - there are plenty of people who can consume anime/video games/porn and understand that what is alright in fiction isn't alright in real life. (Disclaimer: while I'm bringing up porn, I don't mean to say that porn that exploits/abuses real people should ever be okay to make or watch.) The problem is the individuals who don't understand this. The people who justify their bad behavior with fictional content don't do it *because* of the content, they do it because they haven't been taught appropriate ways to engage with media and/or other people. Or they're looking for excuses to behave inappropriately.

The trouble is that there's no easy way to fix this problem completely, since schools and parents vary in how thoroughly (or at all) they teach media literacy/criticism and basic human decency, and everyone has their own biases and blindspots besides. But I don't think it's the responsibility of a content creator to bubblewrap their work so no one ever gets the wrong idea, that's impossible.

[freezedriedfruit]

Does anime influence some people to act atrociously? Yes. Just like porn/video games do influence some people to act atrociously. But the problem, as I see it, isn't the media content you consume - there are plenty of people who can consume anime/video games/porn and understand that what is alright in fiction isn't alright in real life. (Disclaimer: while I'm bringing up porn, I don't mean to say that porn that exploits/abuses real people should ever be okay to make or watch.) The problem is the individuals who don't understand this. The people who justify their bad behavior with fictional content don't do it *because* of the content, they do it because they haven't been taught appropriate ways to engage with media and/or other people. Or they're looking for excuses to behave inappropriately.

The trouble is that there's no easy way to fix this problem completely, since schools and parents vary in how thoroughly (or at all) they teach media literacy/criticism and basic human decency, and everyone has their own biases and blindspots besides. But I don't think it's the responsibility of a content creator to bubblewrap their work so no one ever gets the wrong idea, that's impossible.

Sure, but what happened someone equating influence meaning "I saw a show where people killed each other and now I want to kill people too" to influence meaning "I love anime to the point where it shapes the way I see actual Japanese/Asian people" and saying the second isn't real.

It's the difference between me watching High School Musical and starting up a theatre club, or me watching High School Musical and becoming convinced that all American high schools are and should be exactly like that.

They're both examples of people engaging badly with media, but they're not the same thing.

[TheBookishBabe]

Why are people so afraid to go to the general fiction, literary fiction, adult sff, women's fiction shelves where these stories are at? Why do they think.at 25 you suddenly have your ish together?




Whew actually plagiarism

[BookBird]

I swear this is a fairly new thing of them being so scared of reading YA until quite old and looking to find themselves in it. I remember turning 14 and being allowed free range on the whole library, it made me so excited to have so much choice. (My library put an age limit of 14 on the general adult books to stop kids reading books that were too old for them, you could get an adult book out with your parent though).

[TheBookishBabe]

I swear this is a fairly new thing of them being so scared of reading YA until quite old and looking to find themselves in it. I remember turning 14 and being allowed free range on the whole library, it made me so excited to have so much choice. (My library put an age limit of 14 on the general adult books to stop kids reading books that were too old for them, you could get an adult book out with your parent though).

Yep as a teen I was getting bored with YA and started exploring the mass market paperback section of the library

[sofisticat]

Right? I also had fairly full access to the library and never got into YA until I was in college. I liked some of the books I read, but the tropes are so restrictive and boring after a while because it's like you can't read a book unless it meets X amount of tropes. Like, it's not bad if you're in the mood for it but I don't get why so many people uphold YA as some gold standard.

[Arriahj]

Why are people so afraid to go to the general fiction, literary fiction, adult sff, women's fiction shelves where these stories are at? Why do they think.at 25 you suddenly have your ish together?




Whew actually plagiarism

See this is why I don't take people seriously because they don't do research there are booktubers ,Instagram people who do "videos or post" about these things that they always complain about. Even if they have same popular books they give you recommendations on stuff that you are looking for
Then They don't realize that the book community online YouTube and Instagram ride if very small to the people who don't know about to keep them that you read everyday or whatever and not post about it and don't need or want NA. Because I really want to know what they was doing when their word children or teenagers reading books and we didn't have the young adult catalog. Didn't even further back when some of these people who just advertised to a certain age range and then they just keep it moving.


I'm so upset putting your hard work and time into a project you love just for some YT lady to turn it into her own and get a a publishing deal and more

[Arriahj]

The quotes tweets are just taking me out me



I think read whatever you want but if you enjoy reading YA more than any other genre just say that and stick to it because keep asking for new adult ain't going to change nothing, IMO . Just say you're not doing any research and you're not really looking for these books or asking your local library or The workers that work in bookstores anything and just go

[TheBookishBabe]

Right? I also had fairly full access to the library and never got into YA until I was in college. I liked some of the books I read, but the tropes are so restrictive and boring after a while because it's like you can't read a book unless it meets X amount of tropes. Like, it's not bad if you're in the mood for it but I don't get why so many people uphold YA as some gold standard.

It's also not the gold standard for diversity in fiction. Especially eith how docial justice issues are shorhirned in with little research and readers from those backgrounds are screaming they're tired of that. And one of YA's biggest problems right now is prople forcing it to be a genre with a specific tone and having to hit tbe same tropes all the time.