Feminism

[TiffanyMaxwell]

Please tell me exactly what use it would be to any woman in Saudi Arabia if we'd "pack up and move" there? Like, explain to me what good it would do considering the high probability that no one would even get the chance to speak out.

Please read my two previous posts again.
If that doesn't ring any bells: I was talking about women in western countries.

I'm gona try to explain myself again. I was saying that there are issues concerning 'white' women which, IMO, are comparably small compared to the misogyny other groups of women (living in the west as well) face within their communities which could even affect their legal rights in future. Instead of speaking out against that, the majority of active feminists chooses to concern themselves otherwise. I'm not saying leave everything else behind and concern yourself with that issue only, but I'm saying that it's tiresome to see them get hyped up over a cold while others are facing cancer.

[HattieChaos]

Sorry, I'll just shut up about my own rape and about how my time in poverty has evidently been worsened by Britain's systemic classism and sexism, because other people have it worse and I'm being selfish by concerning myself with these issues - the "cold" to their "cancer".

My argument still applies, I'll paste it all over again:
"This argument sucks, it's like telling someone who is sad that they shouldn't be because there are kids starving in Africa, or telling the LGBT community to shut up because gay Ugandan people have it worse."

Telling us that our problems are small does literally nothing to better the problems of the women in the Middle East. If you care so much, please tell me what you have been doing this whole time to help them and, again, what you expect us to do to solve this? As Dazzle and I keep saying, there are feminists discussing all of this. There's not much we can say beyond "Hey everyone, look at this stuff happening in the Middle East, this really sucks". We can't do anything to change it as we have no influence over there. We have so little influence in our own countries, what makes you think we can do anything to fix stuff over there? Seriously. What do you want us to do?

[TiffanyMaxwell]

Telling us that our problems are small does literally nothing to better the problems of the women in the Middle East. If you care so much, please tell me what you have been doing this whole time to help them and, again, what you expect us to do to solve this? As Dazzle and I keep saying, there are feminists discussing all of this. There's not much we can say beyond "Hey everyone, look at this stuff happening in the Middle East, this really sucks". We can't do anything to change it as we have no influence over there. We have so little influence in our own countries, what makes you think we can do anything to fix stuff over there? Seriously. What do you want us to do?

I'm giving up. I don't think a discussion can possibly work if the other person doesn't read what you say.

[HattieChaos]

Small in comparison, whatever, same thing. All of my arguments still apply, I can read fine. You're the one making generalisations about a movement you know nothing about, so I don't think I'm the one having reading issues.

I love how when you point out good flaws in someone's reasoning, they immediately claim you didn't understand what they were trying to say. Right.

[theroyalwe]

Allie, you kinda have this white saviours complex, that most middle eastern women don't actually like. So what are you doing for us then? If you're going to blame Islam for the lack of womens rights in the middle east, don't bother.

[TiffanyMaxwell]

@Hattie

You apparently did not read what I said because I repeatedly mentioned that I was talking about women in the western world, that means America and Europe. You keep on mentioning the middle east.. *facepalm*

[HattieChaos]

...I got that, nothing I said contradicted that. I'm mentioning the middle east because you're saying that we're hypocrites for "not caring" about it, while I'm trying to say that western feminists do talk about it and that there's not much more we can do. You said that western women's problems were small in comparison to Muslim women's, I argued against that too (or at least showed why it was pointless to say). Not sure where you're getting the idea that I don't understand your argument/am not reading what you're saying. You seem to be the one that doesn't get it. You mentioned women in the west as well, but your primary argument was that we are hypocrites for not caring about Saudi etc., which we do. And if you're trying to say that some women have it worse in the West as well, we figured that out a while ago: It's called Intersectional feminism. Surprise.

[theroyalwe]

@Hattie

You apparently did not read what I said because I repeatedly mentioned that I was talking about women in the western world, that means America and Europe. You keep on mentioning the middle east.. *facepalm*

In your first post, you mentioned how we should move to Saudi? That's in the middle east? I don't even understand your goddamn point. What do you want people to do??? People do care, however, if you're not a muslim women or a women from the middle east, you cannot fight for it, because you've never experience their oppression.

[theroyalwe]

@Hattie

You apparently did not read what I said because I repeatedly mentioned that I was talking about women in the western world, that means America and Europe. You keep on mentioning the middle east.. *facepalm*

Have you met a muslim women before?

[HattieChaos]

I don't really feel it's my place as a feminist to focus on oppression that I don't have any experience of. Of course, I will absolutely listen to any Muslim or POC that has anything to say about oppression and how their identity contributes to their experience of life, especially in relation to being a woman, I'm totally all for that and I will listen and I think the movement is making a lot of progress with regards to integrating POC and making it less of a "white, middle-class women" movement. I can't fully comment on how successful we are there because I'm white, so I'll leave that to someone else to comment on. We definitely still have problems there with regards to integration, I can totally agree with that, but I think it's an unfair generalisation to make that we're "hypocrites" because we focus too much on what we are most familiar with. I can't speak for them, but I don't think that Muslim communities (in the west as well as the east) would appreciate a bunch of white feminists coming along and acting like they know best, saying that we want to change things to improve things for them when they are perfectly capable of doing so themselves. That's not to say that we don't care or that we are distancing ourselves from the inequality, it's just a matter of trusting them to handle their own society rather than trying to "save" them in any way.

[theroyalwe]

Agree with Hattie, if a white feminist came up to me and started talking about much I have it worse because I am a muslim and how I need to be saved, I would tell you to fuck off. However, if you say that you're thinking of me, and that you have my back, I'll appreciate it more. (Can't speak for other muslim women, but from the ones I have met, they don't like the idea of being saved, we can save ourselves). Plus, muslim women experience the same type of sexism as any other women do in the west. But, it may came with racism and discrimination of our religion.

[TiffanyMaxwell]

@Hattie

You apparently did not read what I said because I repeatedly mentioned that I was talking about women in the western world, that means America and Europe. You keep on mentioning the middle east.. *facepalm*

Have you met a muslim women before?

Obviously. I was born in a Muslim country myself.

[HattieChaos]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... lamophobia

I am not writing here on behalf of Muslim women, who can and do speak for themselves, and not all in one voice. I am writing this as a white feminist infuriated by white men using dog-whistle Islamophobia to derail any discussion of structural sexism; as someone who has heard too many reactionaries tell me to shut up about rape culture and the pay gap and just be grateful I'm not in Saudi Arabia; as someone angered that so many Muslim feminists fighting for gender justice are forced to watch their truth, to paraphrase that fusty old racist Rudyard Kipling, "twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools".

We are the fools, if we believe that accepting aggressive distinctions between nice, safe western sexism and scary, heathen Muslim sexism is going to serve the interests of women. The people making these arguments don't care about women. They care about stoking controversy, attacking Muslims and shouting down feminists of all stripes.

Just gonna leave this here.