Costuber/Costuming Community - Part 3

[stormpie]

ie. American Duchess being accused of being a part of the Juneteenth picnic group when in reality she wasn't even there. But the rumor has stuck and is now "fact" because enough people repeated it)

Does this make CW a plantation now lol

[stormpie]

It's always the matter of popularity. Big channels are big for a reason: either they are relatable, or have consistent output, or cater to specific tastes, or are very visually appealing. Like, even if you don't like them, you can understand why others do. CallOutTube can't provide that, so they settle for the next best thing more often than not.
The question is whether their holy wars are doing any good. Are they actually making marginalized people feel safe or are they creating more white noise? I don't even know anymore.

Is white noice a distraction cause I would say it’s worse than just blowing hot air - all the call outs for minuscule infringements, all the bad faith readings all the noise created to hold onto the strings of relevancy makes it harder to hear when something real is happening. For example would there be so many people for the peacock dress is that issue was not just another one in a string of tiny issues put on blast? Would people be more likely to listen to what the issues with that particular dress is if they hadn’t had to endure a belting about the chemise dress being racist? When everything you say is asking people to align to your often extremist ideals is it any wonder they start saying I don’t care to even listen anymore.

So let’s look at the ERC issue - she posted a meme with the intent of being anti vax and somehow got slammed as the next gobels, destroying costuming from the inside with her hate filled anti Semitic ways. Was she wrong - sure but did it really need that level of response? Did all those associated with her need to bear the stain and hold responsibility for her actions? Is a community that will do that inviting to anyone regardless of creed?

Beyond that if people think they have to walk on eggshells or be lambasted for any minor infringement on ever changing rules will they really want a part in that?

[stormpie]

By looking at it from the "outside" (like from the farther side of Europe, with not much connection to the English / American costuming commuinity), it seems that CallOutTube is out to get the "bhigger names" down one by one. It started before the ERC incident, but she got the worst of it. Is being antivax stupid? Yes. Was it smart what she did? No. Did she deserved the blow she got? Also no. Really nobody saw that one blowing the pipes the loudest and getting the most attention was Snappy Dragon, who then, "incidentally" started her patreon only a few days later. Is she is so insecure that she wants to get views by stomping out others? It is is kinda hard for me to watch her turning everything about racism and antisemitizm, because I quite liked her content/ sewing before she got so loudly political.
I also found strange all the call-outs for ERC "friends" to denounce her... I mean they were supposed to be her FRIENDS. My friends would cover my back for me, even if I do something stupid, that is why they called friends. (Of yourse they do tell me if I am an idiot, but not in public, that is for sure).

Ahh, and if you needed and proof CD reads this forum, she just daid in her current vlog about the New Your trip that "there has been speculation if travel expenses were sponosred" or something in that line...

See I agree on the snappydragon thing, when she is just doing her content she is great, really love the educational stuff about historic jewish dress its a different perspective on a period of clothing that you don't normally see, its inclusive and its entertaining and educational. Don't lecture people, its old, condescending and boring.

[stormpie]

That's definitely a downside to using clickbait. People either assume they know what you're going to say or they get disappointed if you don't end up going in the direction you thought. Not saying that you were disappointed, but I definitely have clicked on some CH videos in the past and was disappointed to not get actual advice.

What does everyone prefer? Titles that are click-baity or straightforward? I've actually been semi defiant with some click-bait. "Oh, you want me to click on it that badly? Well now I'm just going to scroll by."

its not just a click baity title its also a pattern of behaviour - as one of the people jumping on everything as an affront to their personal identity it is far to say many people won't watch the video, take the title at face value and say, yeah just not in the mood to be lectured to by snappy dragon AGAIN about how something I like should be cancelled. Again its a case of screaming so loud that no one wants to listen to anything you say anymore.

[stormpie]

I think it's because colonialism involves some nasty stuff and it was before slavery was illegal in the US. The US colonies didn't start until 1607 with Jamestown in Virginia. The other big early US one Plymouth, Massachusetts AKA the reason we're told we celebrate Thanksgiving, was in 1620. The US declared independence in 1776 so that time period gets a lot of attention around here.

Also, everyone brace yourselves. The Thanksgiving is Problematic posts are coming.

I feel like early 19th Century/Jane Austen/Napoleonic isn’t as fraught, though, and that’s only a few decades later. (This year’s JaneFest notwithstanding, but even that wasn’t as high-drama as other things.) I guess I wonder if there’s any correlation between people who like big shiny blingy costumes and who also like to be the center of attention? Or do other people think that all eras are just as DRAMA as 18th century.

Pick any time in history and it will be problematic in any number of ways, there is no safe time. However, what happens is that people only kick up when it's something they care about. This becomes very clear in the ignorance of labeling everyone in the caucasian race as "white people" historically privileged yet continuing to use terms like paddy wagon and irish twins as if they are not an ethnic slur. So dressing in english fashion from the time of the invasion of ireland ... who cares - but regency... enslavercore.

[buffy_1019]

Dandy Wellington just dropped the video of the dinner and it seemed like a lovely night out with friends. If Callout Tube wants they can do their own event for their clique.

And speaking as a POC...I was also poised to get my feet wet in historical costuming and decided not to after my encounter with History bounding while BIPOC. I had bought the materials, dresses and shoes and was studying fashion, reading up and felt very uncomfortable because I didn't feel like wading into a community where i would be attacked for saying exactly what some people here have said.

Problematic behavior and its consequences are woven into the very fabric of our society, so intertwined with each other, that the solution lies beyond the personal boycotting of problematic places and products. We might as well obliterate the whole continent of Europe, plus Japan and China of we were to take such a drastic approach. I don't have a solution either. Educating ourselves is a push towards the right direction but shutting down discussion via the self-righteous olympics helps nobody!

[itiswhatitis35]

Also, everyone brace yourselves. The Thanksgiving is Problematic posts are coming.

So not celebrating Columbus, I get. The guy was considered pretty brutal even in his own day, and that is saying something. But nobody is sitting around their Thanksgiving tables talking about how awesome it is that we subjugated the Native Americans. They're talking about food, football, and family. The original Thanksgiving was about celebrating the harvest, something that happens in nearly all cultures worldwide (for example, Chuseok in Korea). And deliberately misconstruing the holiday is exactly why people rail against cancel culture, because it tries to turn everything into a problem. It takes a very innocent holiday and tells people that instead of celebrating with their loves ones, they should go sit in a corner and think about what they've done. This does a lot more harm than good, as people just won't accept that, especially not after the hellish year and a half that we've all had. And they'll be less inclined to listen to real, solid points made about institutionalized racism. Isn't it more important that we advocate for like, affordable housing and voting rights than to demonize a beloved holiday?

[MoxieAndMint]

Entirely offtopic but BB just posted a piggy halloween costume video. 10/10, would watch again for the wiggly piggy butt and the squeaks.

[LadyViorica]

Also, everyone brace yourselves. The Thanksgiving is Problematic posts are coming.

So not celebrating Columbus, I get. The guy was considered pretty brutal even in his own day, and that is saying something. But nobody is sitting around their Thanksgiving tables talking about how awesome it is that we subjugated the Native Americans. They're talking about food, football, and family. The original Thanksgiving was about celebrating the harvest, something that happens in nearly all cultures worldwide (for example, Chuseok in Korea). And deliberately misconstruing the holiday is exactly why people rail against cancel culture, because it tries to turn everything into a problem. It takes a very innocent holiday and tells people that instead of celebrating with their loves ones, they should go sit in a corner and think about what they've done.

Weeeeeeeeeeeell not . . . precisely. American Thanksgiving is held to celebrate/commemorate the first Thanksgiving, the "Squanto shared with the Pilgrims" story that gets taught in schools. It's a nice story, but the reality is a bit more grim:

The local First Nations peoples were already familiar with the English, who had intermittently visited the area for fishing and trade before Mayflower arrived. In the Cape Cod area, relations were poor following a visit several years earlier by Thomas Hunt. Hunt kidnapped 20 people from Patuxet (the site of Plymouth Colony) and another seven from Nausett, and he attempted to sell them as slaves in Europe. One of the Patuxet abductees was Squanto, who became an ally of the Plymouth Colony.

The Pokanokets also lived nearby and had developed a particular dislike for the English after one group came in, captured numerous people, and shot them aboard their ship. By this time, there had already been reciprocal killings at Martha's Vineyard and Cape Cod. But during one of the captures by the English, Squanto escaped to England and there became a Christian. When he came back, he found that most of his tribe had died from plague

[itiswhatitis35]

So not celebrating Columbus, I get. The guy was considered pretty brutal even in his own day, and that is saying something. But nobody is sitting around their Thanksgiving tables talking about how awesome it is that we subjugated the Native Americans. They're talking about food, football, and family. The original Thanksgiving was about celebrating the harvest, something that happens in nearly all cultures worldwide (for example, Chuseok in Korea). And deliberately misconstruing the holiday is exactly why people rail against cancel culture, because it tries to turn everything into a problem. It takes a very innocent holiday and tells people that instead of celebrating with their loves ones, they should go sit in a corner and think about what they've done.

Weeeeeeeeeeeell not . . . precisely. American Thanksgiving is held to celebrate/commemorate the first Thanksgiving, the "Squanto shared with the Pilgrims" story that gets taught in schools. It's a nice story, but the reality is a bit more grim:

The local First Nations peoples were already familiar with the English, who had intermittently visited the area for fishing and trade before Mayflower arrived. In the Cape Cod area, relations were poor following a visit several years earlier by Thomas Hunt. Hunt kidnapped 20 people from Patuxet (the site of Plymouth Colony) and another seven from Nausett, and he attempted to sell them as slaves in Europe. One of the Patuxet abductees was Squanto, who became an ally of the Plymouth Colony.

The Pokanokets also lived nearby and had developed a particular dislike for the English after one group came in, captured numerous people, and shot them aboard their ship. By this time, there had already been reciprocal killings at Martha's Vineyard and Cape Cod. But during one of the captures by the English, Squanto escaped to England and there became a Christian. When he came back, he found that most of his tribe had died from plague

And I repeat, nobody is celebrating this. This isn't what Thanksgiving is about nowadays. And while I agree, the holiday's origins might be a little mixed and I should have specified that (celebrating harvest, good, celebrating massacres, not so good), again, no one is treating it as a celebration of triumph over Native Americans. So if you don't want to celebrate because of something that happened four hundred years ago, be my guest, but I'm not going to wear a hairshirt and take a timeout because of atrocities committed by people I'm not even descended from (my ancestors arrived in America at the turn of the 20th century). Thanksgiving has evolved into a holiday about, as I said, food and getting together with family. The origins might not be the greatest, and mea culpa for not specifying that, but the holiday now is pretty great. And isn't that what people want, to move on to a more just and caring world?

[MoxieAndMint]

Also, everyone brace yourselves. The Thanksgiving is Problematic posts are coming.

So not celebrating Columbus, I get. The guy was considered pretty brutal even in his own day, and that is saying something. But nobody is sitting around their Thanksgiving tables talking about how awesome it is that we subjugated the Native Americans. They're talking about food, football, and family. The original Thanksgiving was about celebrating the harvest, something that happens in nearly all cultures worldwide (for example, Chuseok in Korea). And deliberately misconstruing the holiday is exactly why people rail against cancel culture, because it tries to turn everything into a problem. It takes a very innocent holiday and tells people that instead of celebrating with their loves ones, they should go sit in a corner and think about what they've done. This does a lot more harm than good, as people just won't accept that, especially not after the hellish year and a half that we've all had. And they'll be less inclined to listen to real, solid points made about institutionalized racism. Isn't it more important that we advocate for like, affordable housing and voting rights than to demonize a beloved holiday?

I feel that this is a bit... difficult to navigate. Because yes, the people who celebrate Thanksgiving do not generally intend to be racist while doing it. But... a lot of the iconography around it, the stories told to children around the origins of it, and the mythos around thanksgiving is steeped in pretty racist stuff that centers around a genocide that many could argue is *still* ongoing. It doesn't have to be but there is a lot of baggage that can placed in and around Thanksgiving both where it came from and what it came to represent.

It's kind of like how the racist mascots and identities of footballs teams may not be intended to be explicitly racist and hurtful but they generally **are** and people recognise that they're slowly going out of fashion.

[Ezzy]

Dandy Wellington just dropped the video of the dinner and it seemed like a lovely night out with friends. If Callout Tube wants they can do their own event for their clique.

And speaking as a POC...I was also poised to get my feet wet in historical costuming and decided not to after my encounter with History bounding while BIPOC. I had bought the materials, dresses and shoes and was studying fashion, reading up and felt very uncomfortable because I didn't feel like wading into a community where i would be attacked for saying exactly what some people here have said.

Problematic behavior and its consequences are woven into the very fabric of our society, so intertwined with each other, that the solution lies beyond the personal boycotting of problematic places and products. We might as well obliterate the whole continent of Europe, plus Japan and China of we were to take such a drastic approach. I don't have a solution either. Educating ourselves is a push towards the right direction but shutting down discussion via the self-righteous olympics helps nobody!

Here is the link to that video for those interested. It did seem like a lovely get-together. Though is it strange that I am surprised to see Nami there too? She does not seem to be specifically dressed in historical fashion, and as mentioned in this topic before, she is more of a cosplayer than part of the HCC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bg9_4mcvd4

[groguchic]

Yeah it annoyed me that there was no dress code so people were wearing wildly different things. like Bernadette wasn't in evening wear, and Noelle and Nami weren't historical. But I guess if people were supposed to wear things they made it would be too much work to get everyone on the same page if whole new outfits would need to be made for it. And it did look like a really fun dinner for friends that I would love to do with my friends, and too many rules does suck the fun out of it.

Also I love tea and I love gin, but those teacup cocktail glasses were very stupid looking.

[Justagoat]

Also I love tea and I love gin, but those teacup cocktail glasses were very stupid looking.

Agree 100%, I mean wtf was that??? If they were trying to be all "speakeasy" just serve the gin in teacups.

[sillywhippet]

Morgan sorting her friends into DND races/classes was pretty sweet. She follows at least one dice maker on insta (noticed she was also following one I follow) and seems pretty nerdy.

[stormpie]

Dandy Wellington just dropped the video of the dinner and it seemed like a lovely night out with friends. If Callout Tube wants they can do their own event for their clique.

And speaking as a POC...I was also poised to get my feet wet in historical costuming and decided not to after my encounter with History bounding while BIPOC. I had bought the materials, dresses and shoes and was studying fashion, reading up and felt very uncomfortable because I didn't feel like wading into a community where i would be attacked for saying exactly what some people here have said.

Problematic behavior and its consequences are woven into the very fabric of our society, so intertwined with each other, that the solution lies beyond the personal boycotting of problematic places and products. We might as well obliterate the whole continent of Europe, plus Japan and China of we were to take such a drastic approach. I don't have a solution either. Educating ourselves is a push towards the right direction but shutting down discussion via the self-righteous olympics helps nobody!

The answer I think is that the past is the past and unchangable - focus in actual inequalities that still exist rather than what we can’t change. Respect the past but accept that we have moved on leave it there. The default should be everyone thinks slavery was wrong, so If someone dresses Georgian the assumption should be they think slavery is wrong. Somewhere along the line People confused reenactment with playing dress up - no matter what style of dress I wear modern to caveman I am still me a 21st Century woman, I am roleplaying anything I’m just wearing my art.

There is a great ted talk by Meghan Phelps-roper (ex westboro) who gives steps to changing someone’s mind and includes always assume good intent. Call out tube would do well to watch and learn because you don’t change minds or win people to your cause if you constantly assume they are Aholes

[stormpie]

Morgan sorting her friends into DND races/classes was pretty sweet. She follows at least one dice maker on insta (noticed she was also following one I follow) and seems pretty nerdy.

Should we try this

Bernadette is an elf for sure and I’m going with sorcerer for class but not 100% sure

Abby is a tiefling bard

[sillywhippet]

Morgan sorting her friends into DND races/classes was pretty sweet. She follows at least one dice maker on insta (noticed she was also following one I follow) and seems pretty nerdy.

Should we try this

Bernadette is an elf for sure and I’m going with sorcerer for class but not 100% sure

Abby is a tiefling bard

Totally agree on the tiefling bard for Abby.
High Elf Sorcerer or wizard would suit BB I think.
Angela I think could fit into a bunch of different classes, liked Morgan's suggestion of rogue but that's mostly because I play a very cheerful, non-orphan, mum-friend rogue and on reflection she's pretty similar in personally to video Angela. I can see her as a half elf or tiefling.
Sewstine I wanna say cleric but that's probably just because she's a doctor.
What do we think Morgan would be? I can totally see dwarf something but I'm not sure on class. Druid or warlock maybe? Maybe bard?
Rachel Marksy would probably be a human fighter.

[Saffity]

Should we try this

Bernadette is an elf for sure and I’m going with sorcerer for class but not 100% sure

Abby is a tiefling bard

Totally agree on the tiefling bard for Abby.
High Elf Sorcerer or wizard would suit BB I think.
Angela I think could fit into a bunch of different classes, liked Morgan's suggestion of rogue but that's mostly because I play a very cheerful, non-orphan, mum-friend rogue and on reflection she's pretty similar in personally to video Angela. I can see her as a half elf or tiefling.
Sowstine I wanna say cleric but that's probably just because she's a doctor.
What do we think Morgan would be? I can totally see dwarf something but I'm not sure on class. Druid or warlock maybe? Maybe bard?
Rachel Marksy would probably be a human fighter.

I don't know, I see Rachel more as a halfling or gnome and I think she'd be an artificer. Or maybe a druid with Frodo as her buddy.

I'll add Nicole as a dwarf or elf druid
Morgan I think could totally be a dwarf bard
Stringchronicity I see as a halfling or human wizard
Let's toss The Closet Historian in as an Elf sorceror
Juul is 100% a gnome druid

[sillywhippet]

Totally agree on the tiefling bard for Abby.
High Elf Sorcerer or wizard would suit BB I think.
Angela I think could fit into a bunch of different classes, liked Morgan's suggestion of rogue but that's mostly because I play a very cheerful, non-orphan, mum-friend rogue and on reflection she's pretty similar in personally to video Angela. I can see her as a half elf or tiefling.
Sowstine I wanna say cleric but that's probably just because she's a doctor.
What do we think Morgan would be? I can totally see dwarf something but I'm not sure on class. Druid or warlock maybe? Maybe bard?
Rachel Marksy would probably be a human fighter.

I don't know, I see Rachel more as a halfling or gnome and I think she'd be an artificer. Or maybe a druid with Frodo as her buddy.

I'll add Nicole as a dwarf or elf druid
Morgan I think could totally be a dwarf bard
Stringchronicity I see as a halfling or human wizard
Let's toss The Closet Historian in as an Elf sorceror
Juul is 100% a gnome druid

Oh yeah halfling, guess I just see her as a fighter because the last vid I saw of hers was the knightcore one and I think she's to chaotic for pally.