I can't even imagine the amount of effort one must put in to find something to be personally offended by in every single thing. I had his tweets all over my feed before I muted him cause some of my mutuals like him apparently, and my eyes would spontaneously start rolling when I saw his name. I swear, some people have too much free time on their hands.freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:59 amIs Emery just bitter that his indie book flopped? IIRC, he published this book as C.T. Callahan way back in the day called Plastic Wings, and I remember him doing EXACTLY the the thing he's talking about here: complaining about how people who wanted more diversity didn't read his book and how everyone ignored #ownvoices indie authors.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:12 pm
That too and some replies did mention that people need to go read some indie. And then folks like Emery Lee dubbed indie inaccessible even though indie allows authors from around the world who wouldn't have the opportunity otherwise to publish their books. And many authors actually get book deals now based off their indie sales. There's a misconception that most indie is only available via ebook. Most small indie presses offer paperbacks. Authors on Amazon have the option to offer paperbacks and most end up doing that.
Book Twitter
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A lot of booktubers just want to kiss trad pub's ass and avoid indie pub entirely (maybe this ties back into a booktube elitism thing). This is just a personal opinion but if you're a fantasy reader and you're not reading indie fantasy, you're not "well read" in the genre. Most of the books recommended to me by my Kindle app are indie published fantasy. There's so much to choose from, they vary in "difficulty" and it's cheap AF. Also the complaint that "adult fantasy is too difficult" isn't true. The problem is someone going from YA standard fantasy to adult High fantasy - they're just different kinds of stories. People just need to try adult standard or whimsical fantasy.Asdf_lurker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:54 pmI also feel like, though haven't read enough to really tell, that there is a lot of these style of books on the indie SFF market in places like Kindle unlimited but because booktubers only push hot new releases from mainstream publishers they miss anything that would be in there wheelhouse but requires just a little bit of research to find.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:47 pm
People do write those in the SFF world and then readers constantly mislabel them as YA and even complain about those books feeling too young and simplistic.
This isn't a new take but I hate whenever booktubers make suggestions for New Adult books they're all from female adult fantasy writers (except SLM because of the smut scenes). They have to deal with enough sexism from other male authors and reviewers as it is. I've even seen the books miscategorised as YA entirely.
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Re: Book Twitter
Same. I only saw this tweet because someone sent it to me. I also got tired of the constant guilting folks to buy his book. Plus having replies off but constantly posting trash hot takes is a punk movie.AhTheGossip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:23 amI can't even imagine the amount of effort one must put in to find something to be personally offended by in every single thing. I had his tweets all over my feed before I muted him cause some of my mutuals like him apparently, and my eyes would spontaneously start rolling when I saw his name. I swear, some people have too much free time on their hands.freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:59 am
Is Emery just bitter that his indie book flopped? IIRC, he published this book as C.T. Callahan way back in the day called Plastic Wings, and I remember him doing EXACTLY the the thing he's talking about here: complaining about how people who wanted more diversity didn't read his book and how everyone ignored #ownvoices indie authors.
Makes sense his indie flopped so he's trying to make it seem like indie authors can't find an audience.
I don't even think some booktubers in correctly calling books that are adult YA realize it's low key sexist. Many times they're calling it YA because they heard someone else do it. Because things get tagged as certain genres depending on how you shelve them on Goodreads I always see fantasy miscategorized as YA. Sometimes even the authors are confused about it when their characters are 20 somethings.
Being written by a woman, not being a dense tome with conplicated worldbuilding, having 17 and 18 yr old characters does not mean a book is YA. And the way people are so intimidated by adult books clearly we need those books to help transition people in adult sff reading.
I don't see them do much mislabeling with adult romance usually because the ones they pick up have sex scenes so they associate that with being adult. And they avoid literary fiction and women's fiction like the plague for the most part on Booktube and Book Twitter. Same for adult mystery/suspense/thriller. The only one I really saw them talk about recently was When No One Is Watching and that one read very romantic suspense though the publisher doesn't call it that because it's supposed to be her big departure from romance. It plays heavily off her strengths as a romance writer.
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Re: Book Twitter
well he's not SUPPOSED to be on twitter/ have an abundance of "free time"AhTheGossip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:23 amI can't even imagine the amount of effort one must put in to find something to be personally offended by in every single thing. I had his tweets all over my feed before I muted him cause some of my mutuals like him apparently, and my eyes would spontaneously start rolling when I saw his name. I swear, some people have too much free time on their hands.freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:59 am
Is Emery just bitter that his indie book flopped? IIRC, he published this book as C.T. Callahan way back in the day called Plastic Wings, and I remember him doing EXACTLY the the thing he's talking about here: complaining about how people who wanted more diversity didn't read his book and how everyone ignored #ownvoices indie authors.
he was supposed to be editing for months but obviously we know how that went lol
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freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:29 pmIn the SFF realm at least, it feels like people are asking for more accessibly written adult books when they talk about wanting NA— e.g. The Poppy War, Uprooted, The House in the Cerulean Sea or even SJM books. Something that is a quick, easy read like YA is, but with older characters and not bound by the constraints of YA. Not everyone wants to read a giant high fantasy tome with detailed worldbuilding, dense writing and 30 POVs and that's fair enough.
Epic fantasy is just one type of fantasy though. Like if you don't want to read The Way of Kings fair enough, but that has never been and will never be the only type of adult fantasy.
Even within Epic fantasy, it really is not that hard to find single pov and character driven stories. Yes the worldbuilding will probably be more detailed but that doesn't equate to density imo.
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I'm reading The Unbroken right now by CL Clark right now. Very easy to read and something Booktube would probably enjoy if they didn't steer clear of all adult books.greysweatpants20 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:54 pmfreezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:29 pmIn the SFF realm at least, it feels like people are asking for more accessibly written adult books when they talk about wanting NA— e.g. The Poppy War, Uprooted, The House in the Cerulean Sea or even SJM books. Something that is a quick, easy read like YA is, but with older characters and not bound by the constraints of YA. Not everyone wants to read a giant high fantasy tome with detailed worldbuilding, dense writing and 30 POVs and that's fair enough.
Epic fantasy is just one type of fantasy though. Like if you don't want to read The Way of Kings fair enough, but that has never been and will never be the only type of adult fantasy.
Even within Epic fantasy, it really is not that hard to find single pov and character driven stories. Yes the worldbuilding will probably be more detailed but that doesn't equate to density imo.
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To be fair, physical indie books (or at least, the ones we actually want to read) are relatively inaccessible to those of us who don't live in the West. International shipping is a bitch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Asdf_lurker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:40 pmwow, this is such a bad take, lots of indie books are accessible for readers because they use a print on demand model and while it might take a few months for the audiobooks to be made indie authors were the first ones to mass adopt audiobooks. Amazon will literally recommend you indie books depending on how deep into the algorithm you end up.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:12 pm
That too and some replies did mention that people need to go read some indie. And then folks like Emery Lee dubbed indie inaccessible even though indie allows authors from around the world who wouldn't have the opportunity otherwise to publish their books. And many authors actually get book deals now based off their indie sales. There's a misconception that most indie is only available via ebook. Most small indie presses offer paperbacks. Authors on Amazon have the option to offer paperbacks and most end up doing that.
Though apparently, this was the point he was making, not to derail conversations about what traditional publishing needs to do more of by saying read indie - which as the person who replied to him said he could have made that clear in his original tweet.
Still, if you want to shake up the system not being cultish tied to the traditional publishing model is one way to do it. Why, should I get all my book recommendations from traditional publishing if there are black joy books in self-publishing shouldn't we be promoting them and uplifting those authors who are probably black authors themselves. I really don't get this mentality that the only way to change publishing is to do so through traditional publishing.
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People who can't find books they like in "most popular new releases everyone talk about" pile are like:
What should I do?
a) Seek for releases publishers don't promote but maybe they are for me.
b) Seek for backlist titles I will like.
c) Seek for books by small presses and selfpub authors.
d) Seek for translated books because there a different trends in genres in different countries.
e) Do everything listed above.
f) Complain about publishing not shoving books I will like right in my face.
Of course I choose F.
It always looks so weird tbh. It's like they so used to have super mainstream taste in YA books that now it's hard to them to make even smallest moves to search adult books they will like.
What should I do?
a) Seek for releases publishers don't promote but maybe they are for me.
b) Seek for backlist titles I will like.
c) Seek for books by small presses and selfpub authors.
d) Seek for translated books because there a different trends in genres in different countries.
e) Do everything listed above.
f) Complain about publishing not shoving books I will like right in my face.
Of course I choose F.
It always looks so weird tbh. It's like they so used to have super mainstream taste in YA books that now it's hard to them to make even smallest moves to search adult books they will like.
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I definitely didn't take that into account and that's a fair argument.someonewatching wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:52 amTo be fair, physical indie books (or at least, the ones we actually want to read) are relatively inaccessible to those of us who don't live in the West. International shipping is a bitch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: Book Twitter
Ironic, the whole finding adult books that read like YA is one of the reasons I started watching BookTube in the first place. If you go on r/fantasy and look for recs it's all just dense, slow, epic fantasy reads. BookTube was the first place I saw other books being recommended on the regular. So it's funny to me that BookTubers are saying they can't find books they like. Just go on YouTube and search for "new adult fantasy" and you'll find a ton of videos. Most of them are just adult books but they put new adult in the title or description to get people to find the video.
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But shipping prices would also be a problem for traditionally published books.someonewatching wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:52 amTo be fair, physical indie books (or at least, the ones we actually want to read) are relatively inaccessible to those of us who don't live in the West. International shipping is a bitch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Asdf_lurker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:40 pm
wow, this is such a bad take, lots of indie books are accessible for readers because they use a print on demand model and while it might take a few months for the audiobooks to be made indie authors were the first ones to mass adopt audiobooks. Amazon will literally recommend you indie books depending on how deep into the algorithm you end up.
Though apparently, this was the point he was making, not to derail conversations about what traditional publishing needs to do more of by saying read indie - which as the person who replied to him said he could have made that clear in his original tweet.
Still, if you want to shake up the system not being cultish tied to the traditional publishing model is one way to do it. Why, should I get all my book recommendations from traditional publishing if there are black joy books in self-publishing shouldn't we be promoting them and uplifting those authors who are probably black authors themselves. I really don't get this mentality that the only way to change publishing is to do so through traditional publishing.
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Re: Book Twitter
I live in a country where international shipping prices is really expensive. It is still FAR cheaper to get ahold of traditionally published books than indie published books. Traditionally published books still occasionally get stocked in local bookstores, and there's local online bookstores, bookstores from nearby countries that will ship to us at a reasonable price, and international bookstores like Book Depository.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:01 pmBut shipping prices would also be a problem for traditionally published books.someonewatching wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:52 am
To be fair, physical indie books (or at least, the ones we actually want to read) are relatively inaccessible to those of us who don't live in the West. International shipping is a bitch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just looked up an indie book on Amazon that I was interested in reading— 35USD total to get a paperbacked shipped to me. Sure, places like Book Depository also sells indie books, but they're usually marked up to twice the price of a traditionally published book.
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Re: Book Twitter
Yes, shipping prices would still be high to countries with high shipping rates but you got to take into consideration that book stores buy things in bulk so they get a discount on things like that. It's not just the weight that gets taken into consideration but the size of the package. So if a bookstore is ordering a pallet of books that might be given more priority than say someone ordering a single book which would be considered and lumped in with the ordinary mail. Basically, it's more expensive to print and ship one book than it is to print and ship 30. With the print and demand model, the book is only printed when you order it. So if the printing house isn't near you the shipping is, of course, going to be more expensive and I didn't take that into account in my first statement. For example, I looked up where Ingramspark's offices are and most of their offices are in the US or Europe with one in Australia so shipping outside of there is going to be more expensive.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:01 pmBut shipping prices would also be a problem for traditionally published books.
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Alot of bookstores outside the US and UK don't stock releases that aren't bestsellers so regardless there are international readers paying high shipping costs for books whether traditional or indie. And then not everyone has a local bookstore. And Book Depository isn't in every area. There's always going to be factors of acessibility when it comes to print books. But I do see alot of people who aren't located in countries like the US and UK reading ebooks.Asdf_lurker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:30 pmYes, shipping prices would still be high to countries with high shipping rates but you got to take into consideration that book stores buy things in bulk so they get a discount on things like that. It's not just the weight that gets taken into consideration but the size of the package. So if a bookstore is ordering a pallet of books that might be given more priority than say someone ordering a single book which would be considered and lumped in with the ordinary mail. Basically, it's more expensive to print and ship one book than it is to print and ship 30. With the print and demand model, the book is only printed when you order it. So if the printing house isn't near you the shipping is, of course, going to be more expensive and I didn't take that into account in my first statement. For example, I looked up where Ingramspark's offices are and most of their offices are in the US or Europe with one in Australia so shipping outside of there is going to be more expensive.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:01 pmBut shipping prices would also be a problem for traditionally published books.
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Re: Book Twitter
No one is litigating whether or not international readers pay high shipping prices, the point is that print copies of indie books are far more inaccessible than traditionally published books.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:03 pmAlot of bookstores outside the US and UK don't stock releases that aren't bestsellers so regardless there are international readers paying high shipping costs for books whether traditional or indie. And then not everyone has a local bookstore. And Book Depository isn't in every area. There's always going to be factors of acessibility when it comes to print books. But I do see alot of people who aren't located in countries like the US and UK reading ebooks.Asdf_lurker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:30 pm
Yes, shipping prices would still be high to countries with high shipping rates but you got to take into consideration that book stores buy things in bulk so they get a discount on things like that. It's not just the weight that gets taken into consideration but the size of the package. So if a bookstore is ordering a pallet of books that might be given more priority than say someone ordering a single book which would be considered and lumped in with the ordinary mail. Basically, it's more expensive to print and ship one book than it is to print and ship 30. With the print and demand model, the book is only printed when you order it. So if the printing house isn't near you the shipping is, of course, going to be more expensive and I didn't take that into account in my first statement. For example, I looked up where Ingramspark's offices are and most of their offices are in the US or Europe with one in Australia so shipping outside of there is going to be more expensive.
Back to the original point, Emery Lee is still wrong for calling indie inaccessible. Indie (as in self-pub) is far more accessible to most readers because of the ebook factor and authors are able to distribute worldwide at a lower price. Heaps of international readers can't even get traditionally published ebooks or audiobooks because the rights haven't been sold in their region.
Honestly, I don't know what he's on about because indie publishers are generally pay scraps, have worse covers, and don't have the budget to market your book. Self-publishing only pays scraps if you fail at it, and readers can't find you if you suck at marketing your book, both of which apply to Emery's self-published book.
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Re: Book Twitter
The point is about inaccessibility just because that inaccessibility of distribution doesn't affect you or me doesn't mean it doesn't exist.freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:29 pmNo one is litigating whether or not international readers pay high shipping prices, the point is that print copies of indie books are far more inaccessible than traditionally published books.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:03 pm
Alot of bookstores outside the US and UK don't stock releases that aren't bestsellers so regardless there are international readers paying high shipping costs for books whether traditional or indie. And then not everyone has a local bookstore. And Book Depository isn't in every area. There's always going to be factors of acessibility when it comes to print books. But I do see alot of people who aren't located in countries like the US and UK reading ebooks.
Back to the original point, Emery Lee is still wrong for calling indie inaccessible. Indie (as in self-pub) is far more accessible to most readers because of the ebook factor and authors are able to distribute worldwide at a lower price. Heaps of international readers can't even get traditionally published ebooks or audiobooks because the rights haven't been sold in their region.
Honestly, I don't know what he's on about because indie publishers are generally pay scraps, have worse covers, and don't have the budget to market your book. Self-publishing only pays scraps if you fail at it, and readers can't find you if you suck at marketing your book, both of which apply to Emery's self-published book.
While the vast majority of people do benefit from the boom in ebook distribution some people still prefer or require physical copies. Higher shipping rates and limited stock makes the variety of books available to you if you are this person quite limiting. This was the point that was being made, that outside the west the variety of print books is limited due to the cost of distribution and availability of stock. Which is an accessibility issue. Just like not being able to get an ebook or audiobook copy because the rights haven't been sold to your region.
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Point taken. I agree, but this issue does actually affect me.Asdf_lurker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:44 amThe point is about inaccessibility just because that inaccessibility of distribution doesn't affect you or me doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
While the vast majority of people do benefit from the boom in ebook distribution some people still prefer or require physical copies. Higher shipping rates and limited stock makes the variety of books available to you if you are this person quite limiting. This was the point that was being made, that outside the west the variety of print books is limited due to the cost of distribution and availability of stock. Which is an accessibility issue. Just like not being able to get an ebook or audiobook copy because the rights haven't been sold to your region.
As someone who has lived in a very geographically isolated Western country and a non-English speaking, non-Western countries with ridiculous costs of international shipping prices and preferred physical copies, I am pretty much that person you are talking about. Even in the Western country, it would be difficult to find even some bestsellers because bookstores in the country were so small they just can't hold much stock. However, in my experience, indie is still far more inaccessible than traditional when it comes to print. Even books from indie publishers are less accessible (more expensive, never locally stocked) than traditionally published books. I took some comments as implying that indie and traditional books are equally inaccessible, which I disagree with.
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Emery comes off as so bitter and sad, always looking for an argument and someone to blame.freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:29 pmNo one is litigating whether or not international readers pay high shipping prices, the point is that print copies of indie books are far more inaccessible than traditionally published books.TheBookishBabe wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:03 pm
Alot of bookstores outside the US and UK don't stock releases that aren't bestsellers so regardless there are international readers paying high shipping costs for books whether traditional or indie. And then not everyone has a local bookstore. And Book Depository isn't in every area. There's always going to be factors of acessibility when it comes to print books. But I do see alot of people who aren't located in countries like the US and UK reading ebooks.
Back to the original point, Emery Lee is still wrong for calling indie inaccessible. Indie (as in self-pub) is far more accessible to most readers because of the ebook factor and authors are able to distribute worldwide at a lower price. Heaps of international readers can't even get traditionally published ebooks or audiobooks because the rights haven't been sold in their region.
Honestly, I don't know what he's on about because indie publishers are generally pay scraps, have worse covers, and don't have the budget to market your book. Self-publishing only pays scraps if you fail at it, and readers can't find you if you suck at marketing your book, both of which apply to Emery's self-published book.
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tbh I completely agree. I was so excited for meet cute but the way he acts on twitter, making everything about himself, the way he talked about mentals ilnesses and even some of the things he said during the Brazil exclsuive giveaway of his book, turned me off SO much to this book. he's just making his image worse and worse everytime he tweets.boobootwo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:49 amEmery comes off as so bitter and sad, always looking for an argument and someone to blame.freezedriedfruit wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:29 pm
No one is litigating whether or not international readers pay high shipping prices, the point is that print copies of indie books are far more inaccessible than traditionally published books.
Back to the original point, Emery Lee is still wrong for calling indie inaccessible. Indie (as in self-pub) is far more accessible to most readers because of the ebook factor and authors are able to distribute worldwide at a lower price. Heaps of international readers can't even get traditionally published ebooks or audiobooks because the rights haven't been sold in their region.
Honestly, I don't know what he's on about because indie publishers are generally pay scraps, have worse covers, and don't have the budget to market your book. Self-publishing only pays scraps if you fail at it, and readers can't find you if you suck at marketing your book, both of which apply to Emery's self-published book.