FAQ - Pets Edition

[DaylightAmy]

Welcome to the SuperMaryFace Pet FAQ of GuruGossiper!

Sadly, a decent amount of people who end up on this forum, found this place after questions or instances with pets. We thought it would be helpful to make one comprehensive overview about Mary and Ken’s pets, former and current, for newcomers.

Unfortunately there have been a LOT of pets, and there is a LOT to say about some. I will sub-divide this FAQ into different posts about different animals and subjects.

Things will keep happening, evolving and changing within this subject overtime and so posts will eventually be a bit all over the place, but at least the story so far (July 2017) will remain all organized in the first load of posts here. Please note that at the time of this FAQ being created, they have 1 new snake left to announce the name of, and so in these initial FAQ posts that one snake (the Banana Leopard Spider morph) will forever be "[Unknown]".

All evidence and points on this subjects are very welcome on this forum, but please, since this is an FAQ thread and not a discussion thread... if you want something added to this thread, run it by us folks in the latest SuperMaryFace general discussion thread!

Thank you for reading,
Amy

[DaylightAmy]

The Rats



Names: Shredder and Master Splinter
Source: Mary claims she rescued them from a broom closet in the back of a PetSmart
Timeline: adopted March 2014, given away in May 2015

According to Mary (in her vlog “What Happened To The Rats?! Updates Vlog”) the rats lived in the back of a PetSmart because they weren’t getting adopted and were getting too old to sell easily. Mary said they lived in ‘basically a broom closet’ in a little box and when animals end up there, they get given away for free. Mary states in this video that the rats were 2 (or almost 2) years old when she adopted them, however in the original video introducing the rats ("Shredder and Splinter" from 1 April 2014 on the AmeriKen channel) Ken stated they were less than 1 year old when adopted.

When Ken and Mary moved to Mississippi in May 2015, Mary states she went to the vet and the vet 'basically said' that the rats were too old to travel by plane (rats would only be allowed in the cargo area) and they would not survive the trip at their age. She explains the airplane was the only option to transport the rats to Mississippi, as it is not allowed in the US to send rodents by mail. It was not explained why a road trip was not considered.

Mary states she could not figure out what to do with the rats, and then last minute Ken put up on Twitter if anyone wanted their rats. Her friend Devon, who is a make-up artist and already had other rats, said she would take them in "and would let Mary see them every time she visited LA".

A few months later Mary flies back to LA from Mississippi to attend VidCon 2015 (vlog "Vidcon 2015 - SO MANY YOUTUBERS" on her channel) and in her vlog she meets up with Devon, but says she probably won't be able to go visit the rats, though, because she and Devon have both been sick and she's leaving soon.

Rats are known to be incredibly social creatures (and can also be incredibly intelligent) - they form strong bonds with their owners. It has been questioned why they were left behind when there was another transport option that was never mentioned, as the separation would have most definitely affected the rats.

[DaylightAmy]

Adoption VS Purchase

A fairly wide objection to Mary’s pet hoarding is that her ethics have been hypocritical – this applies to pretty much all of her pets. Mary always got on soapboxes about adopting/rescuing animals from shelters, and still claims to be so deeply affected by the wellbeing of animals because she loves them so much. Momentarily disregarding her hatred for turkeys (don’t worry, it’s an inside joke), she has shown time and time again to not be affected by animal wellbeing issues enough to sacrifice anything herself.

Out of the 17 animals she has had since she moved to the US almost 4 years ago, 14 came from breeders, 1 supposedly came from a flea market (Betty) and 2 she supposedly “saved” from being locked in a broom closet in the back of a Petsmart (Shredder and Master Splinter). The fact remains that Betty was not rescued from a shelter, and the rats came from Petsmart.




The Corgis

Betty



Names: Betty Brutal
Source: "Flea Market"
Timeline: purchased January 2014, still owned

Overall care and training for Betty has seemed fairly solid to everyone watching. The only questionable thing in this case is that they got a full bred Corgi puppy at a flea market... this has been seriously questioned; even if flea markets sell corgi puppies, they are probably stolen - unless of course there is a breeder at the flea market selling their puppies.


Jackie



Names: Jackie Jalapeno
Source: Breeder
Timeline: purchased January 2015, given away October 2015

In the video introducing Jackie, Mary put a disclaimed in the video description; she wanted to adopt a dog from a shelter, but Ken wanted a breeder puppy - so do as she says, not as she does:



Ken and Mary only kept Jackie for about 8 months and eventually gave her away due to stated "behavioural issues". Any tweets or videos directly addressing the process of them giving Jackie away seem to have been removed, but overtime they have said on streams that Jackie was "too territorial", aggressive towards Betty, and that they had tried everything but nothing was improving it. Jackie was still at a puppy age, and from what had been said at the time it was understood that they were a little later with desexing Jackie than they had wanted... which could have aggravated territorial behaviour towards other female dogs (Betty).

The only reference that can still be found to their giving Jackie away is this image:



Boss was adopted within weeks of them giving Jackie away.

Recently, Mary has claimed that the reason why Jackie had behavioral issues was because of "neurological problems" (SuperMaryFace channel, “PostPartum Recovery | 11 Days Post” vlog from 16 May 2017). Mary and Ken defensively claimed that all other options had been explored prior to giving Jackie away, and that experts were consulted and Jackie could not be trained.

Neurological problems in dogs that cause these types of behavioural issues are generally treatable - a veterinary technician has confirmed in the discussion regarding Jackie that aggression and behavioural problems can MOST of the time be fixed using the help of a behaviourist and lots of training (this would require more time than Jackie would have been given, considering they had her for less than a year as a puppy still). Sometimes there are dogs that are straight up aggressive and can't be fixed, but in most cases they can - it just takes dedication and time. If it truly was a neurological problem, around 90% of dogs and cats with neurologic problems can get treatment to resolve their issues.

The problem is that it has been visible on video - especially with Boss - that Ken and Mary are fairly ineffective at training dogs. They got a puppy from a breeder (after preaching about adoption), the puppy got desexed a little late and so it got too sassy, they were unable to regain control over her behaviour and gave her away... if proper professional help had been sought, Jackie wouldn't have been gone as quickly as she was. The fact that they blamed their own poor training efforts on Jackie having a neurological defect is fairly offensive to the sensibilities of any owner who loves their pet...

[DaylightAmy]

At this point (4 pets in), we need to pause and point out that in less than 4 years, they have managed to hoard 17 pets, none of which are from a shelter:

[/b][/size]

[DaylightAmy]

Jackie: Continued

All traces of Jackie being given away seem to have been removed from Ken and Mary's social media and channels. The only trace I could still find is some references to a video that no longer exists:



These tweets can be found here: https://twitter.com/majinichigo666/stat ... 7812742144

[tweet][/tweet]

another tweet referring to the same video:

[tweet][/tweet]

The video linked in Mary's response tweet has been deleted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3wecYz0IbU

According to a fan post on Ken's Facebook page, this video was called "Tough times but it'll be okay." - https://www.facebook.com/CToastKen/post ... 6309273838

This third party website links above video with the above mentioned title and also shows the video has been deleted: http://www.online-games.co/video/watch. ... =9ebb39e84

It is unclear why Mary and Ken decided to delete the video explaining what happened if they believe they had a legitimate reason and made the correct decision. I think we've all made tough decisions for or regarding our pets, and I don't know about you, but I will defend them to the moon and back... not hide them.

[DaylightAmy]

Disclaimer: Sadly a lot of “evidence” regarding issues with Boss were shown and/or disclosed during Mary’s Twitch streams between October 2016 and January 2017; some of the things she spoke about were not mentioned on other media, and old Twitch streams sadly disappear quickly. By the time we realized what had really happened, the streams were already too old to retrieve. However anyone who saw the streams would be able to truthfully confirm these things happened.

Boss



Names: Boss
Source: Breeder (Newfoundland)
Timeline: purchased October 2015 – current pet

There is a lot to say about Boss’ situation – because we believe this is really important information and we want it to be accessible (and not an overwhelming wall of text) this post has been divided up in sections and each section is in a spoiler, so you can open and close whatever section you are interested in one by one.

Index
Section 1 - Timeline - Purchase to Passport Incident
Section 2 - Timeline - Being Locked Outside Permanently
Section 3 - Incident - Twitter Rage
Section 4 - Information - Why this is wrong.

Sections 1 and 2 only detail the timeline and section 3 shows an incident where Mary seemingly tried to hide the truth - but if you want to skip straight to the important information (why we think Ken and Mary are doing something very wrong here) go ahead and skip straight to section 4.


SECTION 1: TIMELINE - PURCHASE TO “PASSPORT INCIDENT“

Boss was adopted in late October 2015, a few weeks after Betty was disposed of given away to a better home. Below tweet confirms Boss’ age around the time of adoption as being approximately 8 weeks old.



The video about their purchase of Boss can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cox1CMM-3U4&t=139s



In the video Ken refers to Boss as “a surprise for Mary” (possibly since, as we have seen when Jackie was adopted, Mary takes no ownership in not rescuing any animals herself and buying breeder pets nonstop instead). During one of Mary’s Twitch streams in late 2016 (pre-pregnancy announcement) however she explained that ‘they’ consciously chose the Newfoundland breed because it is compatible with children. At approximately 3:44 into the above video, Ken addresses that ‘this time’ (referring to having to give away Jackie) they did their research and talked to the trainer and “took everything into account, like the sex of the dog, the size of the dog [he says this as though it means they won’t fight], and also newfies are super passive.”

The first roughly 9 or 10 months of Boss living with Ken and Mary seemed to go fairly smoothly. However once Boss became of considerable size, and Mary started streaming daily, it started becoming evident that Ken and Mary were struggling with Boss’ behaviour.

Layla’s nursery used to be Mary’s office where she streamed. Somewhere in the fall of 2016 during streams, Mary would start the stream at 10pm feeding the dogs behind her in the room – the dogs would often stay in that room either during the duration of her stream, or until Ken woke up. One morning while Mary was trying to start up Skyrim for the stream, her PC did not cooperate. She verbalized that she wanted to go wake up Ken to come help her, but was hesitant to do so because Boss would have to come with her and leave ‘a trail of destruction’ because they would have to walk through the kitchen. Boss’ behaviour issues were addressed in multiple streams, one of the recaps:

http://gurugossiper.com/viewtopic.php?f ... e#p2370440

Ken and Mary had planned a trip to Australia, leaving on 30 November 2016, however not long before they were meant to leave Boss got a hold of Ken’s passport on the kitchen bench and destroyed it. Mary expressed on stream that the process of applying for an emergency passport was stressful and expensive for them, and they were worried the entire time that the passport would still not arrive on time.

Though the streams are no longer available, here is a post referring to the subject:
[i]http://gurugossiper.com/viewtopic.ph ... 368098[/i]

SECTION 2: BEING LOCKED OUTSIDE PERMANENTLY

It seems that the destruction of Ken’s passport was an escalation point of Ken and Mary’s concerns about Boss being destructive. In January 2017 Mary started working on a cosplay and would sometimes stream from their living room – Boss could not be seen during any of these streams. By March 2017 we started suspecting Boss had been locked outside permanently, see below posts:

http://gurugossiper.com/viewtopic.php?f ... m#p2445927
http://gurugossiper.com/viewtopic.php?f ... e#p2447538

The combination of Boss’ almost-adult size, poor discipline and training (sitting for 10 seconds when you say “sit” is not sufficient training), Mary unintentionally and misguidedly rewarding Boss for bad behaviour, Mary’s pregnancy and fear of being judged after giving away Jackie, ultimately lead Ken and Mary to lock Boss outside into the backyard permanently.

Once they started vlogging daily after Layla’s birth, this became painfully obvious – ALL of Boss’ appearances in the vlogs showed him outside:



During the vlogs Ken already started signaling that Boss was outside because he was too hard for them to control or deal with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6lv28zIVbk

TRANSCRIPT OF ABOVE VIDEO:
[4:50 into the video - feeds Boss outside and lets Betty inside to eat] “So, a lot of you people have been asking lately, ‘why-why- is Betty and Boss outside now?’, you know, ‘what’s going on?’. Betty and Boss, for the time being, are spending a lot more time outside. ESPECIALLY Boss. Betty comes in and eats. Boss stays outside mostly because Boss is pretty rough and likes to jump on things and we can’t really be having that with the baby in the house right now. So Boss’ been chillin’ outside. He seems to really like it, so…” [shrugs]

In the same video closes the door in Boss’ face (who clearly wants to come in) and says “Awww, you’re sad…” and then quickly corrects himself “just kidding! You’re not sad! Don’t put your feelings into my dog!”

Although Ken suggests here, and will later on again claim, that Betty is also confined to the yard mostly and only really comes in to eat, she can be seen walking around and sleeping inside the house throughout multiple vlogs. It is clearly Boss who is being targeted. They are trying to make it come off as they “the dogs are being locked out” to cover up the fact that they are locking Boss out specifically because they cannot control him and they are to worried about looking bad to give him up.

In the vlog from 16 May 2017, Ken and Mary explain that their kitchen window is dirty because Boss will just stand up against it and lick it.

SECTION 3: TWITTER RAGE

On 11 June 2017 Ken and Mary posted a vlog that showed Ken complaining about Boss destroying things in the backyard – people started becoming critical in both the comment section on YouTube and on Twitter, suggesting to Ken and Mary that maybe Boss was destroying things because he was bored and lonely outside in the yard 24/7.



Critical comments on the video have since been deleted.

Mary started responding to tweets about Boss with ‘evidence’ and attitude, claiming people were wrong to just presume Boss is not allowed inside the house. This "evidence" is impossible to verify, as she could have taken those photos before they started locking Boss out.








Above tweet with attached photos is Mary's "proof" that Boss is allowed inside the house.

However in their vlog two days later Ken addresses the uproar and word for word admits Mary does not want to tell the truth about Boss. Here is a link to the video as well as a transcript of what Ken has to say about it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AA8-dAyUHc&t=136s

TRANSCRIPT OF ABOVE VIDEO:
“So the issue right now is that people see that our dogs are outside, and that is VERY triggering to some people, that is a terrible, teribble thing ‘your dogs are outside… HOW DARE YOU! How dare you, you’re a terrible person. YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR ANIMALS TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU!’. Really? I should have my animals taken away from me because I have the luxury of having a large backyard and letting my animals run around and play and do what they do naturally? Versus keeping a 150 pound huge dog cramped up inside the house? I mean sure, yeah, there’s airconditioner and heat. But, it’s very nice weather outside, we have two fans on the [porch] ceiling in case it does get too hot, we turn it on. If the weather does get bad we still bring ‘em in. We’re not like everyone else around us that just lets their dogs run all over the place. There’s so many, they’re owned but they’re pretty much wild dogs. But these guys have got a nice fenced in backyard, they’re fully vaccinated, they go to the vet all the time, they have all the protection from fleas, any kind of lil’ bugs that bother ‘em. Protected. And, I mean, the reason why they’ve been outside so much… like, even Mary’s, like, she’s just, she’s not gonna like me saying in this video that the dogs are outside because she knows how people are. But, I mean, we just had a baby! Right? Boss is 150 pounds! He’s a large breed dog so that means that he matures slower than a small dog does. Like he’s still got puppy brain. If we put that baby down, Boss is gonna be like [gestures pouncing], y’know, not saying he WOULD, but the possibilities are pretty high. So we’re like, okay, maybe, we should put Boss dog outside for a bit, until we get comfortable with this and we can handle it better… and then Betty, she’s Boss’ buddy! Betty’s out here! Betty also sheds [speaks to Betty] she sheds, like, a whole two corgis every other day, but, it’s just too much for us to handle at that moment, so, we’ve placed them outside. And they’re perfectly happy! And there’s gonna be comments like ‘well if you can’t keep a pet inside you shouldn’t have them’ [mimicks whining] … there’s pets out there that are actually in need, and ours are perfectly fine. Promise you, ours are doing fantastic. Like… you really think Boss wants to be inside the house?! If we put Boss inside the house we have to put everything away! We have to hide EVERYTHING in the house, because he’s gonna get into it, and he’s gonna tear it to shreds. He’s like ‘I’m gon’ get it!’ – [speaks to Boss about being too warm, ironically] –“

The rant goes on for a little bit longer, but just the above *literally* says the following:
- Some dogs are stray dogs, ours are not, so how could we possibly be doing something wrong?
- Boss’ size and weight are a perfectly good reason to make him an outside-only dog.
- Boss enjoys being excluded outside alone, but mostly we just can’t deal with how destructive he is.
- There are pets in worse situations (not that they would know, since they only buy breeder pets)

If none of this alarms you, know that specifically Newfies are BAD fits for outside dogs - they are much more vulnerable to heat strokes than other dogs, even in the shade. Ken and Mary stopped making vlogs for a few days after all this, but we still have not seen any footage of Boss being let inside and it is the middle of summer in Mississippi.

SECTION 4: WHY THIS IS WRONG

So you may be wondering why we think it’s such a big deal that Boss is locked outside permanently. There are many reasons, ranging from small (Mary contradicting her own ideas about this) to pretty damn big (Newfoundland dogs specifically being terribly unsuited for outside living due to their sensitivity to heat and sun). I will list them all as factually as I can, and you can make up your own mind.

[1] Mary previously said she thinks keeping dogs outside is ‘not very nice’.

https://youtu.be/nXijC0OuNjU?t=35s

“I feel like it’s not very nice to leave [Betty] outside for long periods of time.” - Mary, in that video.

Everyone is allowed to change their opinions overtime, however this is not the only objection.

[2] Dogs are pack animals and social animals. Locking dogs out permanently, especially while letting another dog come in and be part of the pack, is generally considered cruel.

http://www.pethealthnetwork.com/dog-hea ... e-all-time

https://www.thedodo.com/can-dogs-live-o ... 04847.html

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-expert ... -miserable

[3] Boss’ water supply has been questioned. Boss’ water bowl is often seen on camera looking awfully empty - newfies are known to drink a lot of water, and if the bowl is not big enough to last a day, especially in summer, it is essential to either fill it up more often or get a bigger bowl. Boss was also seen on camera attempting to drink soapy water Ken was using to kill wasps, suggesting he is very thirsty.





[4] Newfoundlands SPECIFICALLY cannot handle heat or sun well at all. They can get heatstroke easily in the shade. That is why, for instance, this Newfie rescue organization will not consider adopting out newfies to people who want to keep their dogs outside, at any time of the day or year.

http://www.gentlegiantsrescue-newfoundl ... dlands.htm



[5] Dogs require stimulation.
Mary has referring to walking the dogs as “their weekly walk”. Dogs need more stimulation than 1 field of grass and 1 walk a week. Newfies may not be built for intense on-land exercise, but swimming is great for them, and they are highly intelligent dogs. Newfies may be noted as being somewhat destructive when young in general, but of course it needs to be noted that ‘destructiveness’ is easy to ignore in small dogs who cannot reach many things. If Boss is only getting walked once a week and is being locked outside, away from his pack, all day, he’s going to get bored and destroy things. Newfoundlands are especially known to being sensitive to their owners’ moods and will respond to emotions.

[6] Liar liar pants on fire.
As can be seen by above timeline, Mary and Ken tried to hide the fact that they locked Boss out for quite some time – especially Mary. The reason for that is not, as Ken says, ‘because she knows how people are’. It’s because she knows it’s wrong, and because she knows why she’s doing it – because she cannot control her dog, just like she could not control Jackie, except after the criticism after giving Jackie away they are too proud to put Boss first and realize they simply are not good enough at training and handling dogs to combine it with their lifestyle and give him to people who can actually prioritize his needs appropriately. She would have to admit that she may be the problem, not Jackie and not Boss. This is why, every time they respond to criticism about Boss, they act like people are talking about BOTH Boss and Betty being locked outside – this way they don’t have to admit that they lock Boss outside specifically because they cannot handle him.

[bakers]

Hi ! Thanks for this thread!

I just wanted to say, sometimes we keep following a youtuber not because we really think they're the most interesting or anything, but simply because we don't know any other youtubers that do the things that we are interested in ex: have cool pets.

Anyways today I found a youtuber who has lots of pets and really cares for them and knows how to take care of pets in general. It's refreshing.

and because I think it's so unfair people like Mary get views just because they happened to be with a popular youtuber, here is the other girl I am talking about:

"Maddie Smith"



She has all kinds of pets including reptiles and she shows here how she cares for them.

Anyway I wish we can encourage these people who actually know what they are talking about and make efforts in their videos.

[imjustcurious]

Well I guess major update for this thread: pancake died.

[romr211]

Well I guess major update for this thread: pancake died.

I’m not sure when, but we will be updating this thread at some point with ALL the information about the snakes.

[romr211]

Hey guys, just a general reminder that this thread is not a discussion thread. The update is appreciated, imjustcurious, but like Amy said in the first post, please run things by us before you post more information on here. This goes for anyone else who comes across here.

Hopefully, there will be a post giving information about all of the snakes very soon.

[DaylightAmy]

THE SNAKES
a – Criticisms
b – List of all their snakes
c – Racks/Drawers Pros and Cons
d – Breeder Connections

a – Criticisms
Below you can find criticisms regarding Mary’s snakes in detail, with information to back up the criticisms. But in case you are not that interested in snakes and simply want the lowdown…

* Spending Money on Snakes in Hard Times?
Ken and Mary purchased 7 snakes (worth between $3000 and $5000 alltogether) during a time when they were emphasizing their concerns and worries about finances in the context of asking for Patreon support. Mary has explained this away stating the snakes are an investment for when she can start breeding them in 3-5 years. But they have also mentioned she may change her mind about this, and breeding can be done (profitably) with far less than 10 snakes.

* Concerns about Storage
Mary and Ken are storing their snakes in a drawer system, which is definitely NOT seen as an acceptable storage method by everyone – criticisms are as valid as the arguments FOR it. Additionally, their snakes specifically are stored in drawers that are simply too small – the drawer’s length and width need to be AT LEAST as long as the snake’s total length. That is NOT the case for all their snakes, and additionally there is vlog footage of humidity dripping off the drawer walls, suggesting humidity regulation is not being done properly. Their snakes have also been covered in their own feaces, with Mary suggesting snakes find this enjoyable; it is actually very poor hygiene and a sign that they do not have enough room.

* Morph choices
Some of the morphs Mary has chosen have significant genetic health issues that would be passed on if she breeds them. ALL Spider morphs have what is called “the wobble” (for more information see below in the inventory) – many Champagne morphs also have this issue. Breeding between Champagne and Spider genes has been known to cause lethal health issues.

* Mary’s “Breeder Friends”
Ken addressed that Mary knows what she is doing regarding snake care and breeding because she has “breeder friends”. One of her highest profile “breeder friends” is Brian Barczyk who has been widely criticized within the reptile community himself for his breeding practises and the animals he keeps (there is additional information about him below). Brian is also a fervent supporter of the rack/drawer system, and has also specifically been criticized for HIS rack systems.

b – Inventory
Name Sex Species & Morph Acquisition
Benjamin M Ball Python – Pastel Ivory June 2015
Meryl F Ball Python – VPI Axanthic March 2016
Greta F Woma Python September 2016
Reginald M Ball Python – Cinnamon Banana April 2017
Pancake F Ball Python – Highway April 2017
Bonnie F Ball Python – Pastel Ivory April 2017
Waffles F Ball Python – Champagne Pinstripe July 2017
Poptart F Ball Python – Piebald July 2017
Helen? F Ball Python – Banana Leopard Spider July 2017
William M Ball Python – Killer Bee Het Pied July 2017

* Please note the last few snakes were supposedly named by Patreon but some names were changed or not announced, so at this stage it is hard to determine every name with certainty. Also please note above list was made before Pancake passed away in December 2017.

There has been a bit of discussion regarding Ken and Mary purchasing multiple snakes right before and after Layla’s birth while still expressing concerns about finances to encourage Patreon donations. Unfortunately it is difficult to determine how much these snakes cost with a firm degree of certainty. These python species can range in price between $200 and $10,000 depending on:

* Sex
* Age
* Favourable gene counts
* Popularity and rareness of morphs
* Breeder reputation and chosen pricing

Thanks to LurkieLou, you can read more about Spider morph issues below:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... or_welfare
http://wheremyscalesslither.tumblr.com/ ... the-wobble

c – Racks/Drawers
Opinions about snake racks/drawer systems vary widely inside the reptile community. There is no definitive evidence at this stage firmly for or against this method of keeping snakes.

PROS
+ Ball Pythons are a defensive species and are most comfortable hiding
+ It is easier to regulate temperature and humidity in a drawer, as opposed to an aquarium
+ Drawers are easy to move around and keep clean/sterile for the owners
+ Ball Pythons have no inherent need to burrow – climbing and swimming are not requirements
+ All snakes technically require is heat, security and food

CONS
- Tubs/drawers need to be AT LEAST the length of the snake in length plus width; with often curled up species like Ball Pythons it is difficult to monitor if they outgrow their drawers.
- When stacked away in racks, it is VERY easy to miss alarming behaviour/signs that indicate your snake may not be healthy; certain physical, visible behaviours indicate a need for medical attention.
- There are NO scientific studies regarding long term of multi-generational effects of any snakes, including Ball Pythons, barely using their muscles and practically never stretching out.
- “Preferred state” is not the same as “required permanent state” – ball pythons may prefer hiding, in the wild they still travel considerable distances to mate, eat and hide again. Them enjoying hiding does not mean that hiding and barely moving their entire lives is what is best for them.
- There are licensed and experienced breeders who say NON-drawer snakes are simply more well adjusted and friendly than snakes who spend their lives in racks.

d – Breeder Connections
Mary has appeared in videos with breeder and YouTuber Brian Barczyk. Brian has received his own share of criticism from inside the reptile community that is worth considering.

* Brian keeps both lizards and snakes in drawers that some have argued are far too small.
* Brian also keeps his very large snakes (including a reticulated python) in drawers – these are python species who are known to travel and climb extensively in the wild.
* Brian has allowed his large pythons to breed, even though he has said himself that he should not have done so because homing such large pythons responsibly is near impossible.
* Brian has an alligator himself, which he keeps in a small kiddie pool, and extensively showcases the alligator as a fun pet on his channel even though he says they should not be pets.
* Brian has been criticized after the deaths of some of his animals, with other experts implying he was at fault in the situation, and he has written that feedback off as “hate”.
* He has an incredibly high amount of reptiles, breeds a LOT, and subsequently he has been accused of slacking on checking on the health and living conditions of his animals.

For a critical perspective on Brian’s ethtics, you can go here:

https://fucknobadbreeders.tumblr.com/po ... -a-problem

I myself have an additional objection to Brian as a breeder and “source of advice” – in his videos you can see he handles his snakes quite roughly, and occasionally for fun will even “see how far he can go until it bites”. Though he may think it is harmless to show people that snake bites are no big deal, I simply see no reason to purposely stress out your reptiles.

[DaylightAmy]

R.I.P. Pancake

Sadly in early December 2017, Highway Ball Python "Pancake" passed away as a result of neglect.



Let me be very clear, that is not speculation, that was Ken's own explanation for Pancake's death.

VLOG REFERENCE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5nog9cKwWA
[If this video at any point is removed, please note it has been saved for re-upload for educational purposes.]

In Ken's words:
"I have unfortunate news. That ehm... Pancake, the highway snake, has passed away. And it's all my fault. Pancake was the one that used to [stay out in the] shop with me... and then we got them all new box hides and put 'em all in there, but ehm... five days ago I was trying to feed her, she didn't eat and then I thought that was just normal. Normal Ball Python behaviour, but then me and Mary just went out there to check 'em all and ehm... found her belly up and dead. It really sucks because she was such a nice snake, too. [Yeah it wouldn't suck if it was Meryl or Greta, right?] And ehm... she was kinda my snake, you know? And it's my fault. I did not take care of 'em like I was supposed to. And like, you know, I cleaned 'em all out not long ago. But then... there's a lot of factors that go into it. The thing that killed her was the humidity... inside of her enclosure. It was just real wet.... and she died."

Please do not mistake Ken's words for modesty. This is not him feeling overly responsible for something he could not help. Death through high humidity is an extremely slow, painful and sickly death for a snake. She has to have been sick for an extended period of time, and her enclosure has to have had too much humidity for an extended period of time. This is a prolongued time of neglect on several levels.

Any responsible snake owner checks the humidity in the enclosures, ESPECIALLY right after a change or move of enclosures, which was the case here. Ken flat out neglected the snakes, and Pancake happened to be the one who was the weakest.

Note that on this forum we have been pointing out for months that the smaller makeshift drawers they were using were far too humid, visibly so. As you can see below, these drawers are so humid that there was water dripping off the sides. They have been that way from the start. It has been pointed out to them:



Even if you like and respect Mary and Ken otherwise - which we can kindly disagree on - please don't excuse animal neglect and abuse. We understand they are exposed to a lot of unwanted advice on the internet, but there have been many occasions where they were advised of things that could have prevented Pancake's death.

Ultimately Ken admitted he did not check any of the snakes for 5 days straight, and Pancake's enclosure was insufficiently regulated for her wellbeing. If you stand for the things that they have been claiming to stand for - which is loving animals and caring about snakes - think twice before you explain this away as an "accident".

[DaylightAmy]

Updated Information about the Snakes

Ken and Mary have been avoiding specifics in regards to the snakes - under the presumption that it isn't anyone's business, which would apply if they had not previously overshared about them and then let one die due to neglect... people are going to wonder and worry, whether it's their business or not. You would hope that is a good thing to anyone who loves animals.

Mentions and Updates
* 7 February 2018 In their "At The Vet" vlog, Mary mentions Greta seemed sick and they took her to the vet. The vet prescribed her antibiotics as she was indeed sick. Mary stated that this had made her doubt herself, and she was going to take all snakes to the vet.
* 14 February 2018 In the Valentine's Day vlog they showed having moved all the snakes back inside the house (out of the storm shelter) in the drawers.
* 17 February 2018 Ken mentions in a vlog that the snakes were checked by the vet and Bonnie was now also on meds, but "everyone else is okay" and Mary confirms that this made her feel good about herself.
* 15 March 2018 Ken announced on Twitter that he would skip a stream so he and Mary could move all the snakes out of the drawer system and into terrariums. I presume this is when they figured out the rack system was not helping, and more snakes were sick.
* 29 May 2018 Between other subjects in the vlog, it is quickly mentioned "there are still some snakes we're trying to make better". No specifics.
* 17 June 2018 The latest mention of the snakes' health issues - Ken says "We're trying to make our snakes better". This sounds like a blanket statement for all snakes, but the only snake we definitely see in relation to the antibiotics is William.

At some point, somewhere between April 2018 and July 2018, they update their Patreon family description stating they have 6 snakes. Mind you, before Pancake died there were 10 snakes. This means after Pancake, 3 more snakes have died. Although they are slowly showing more and more snakes in the vlogs (since fans are calling for updates on the snakes) they are not specific on which 6 snakes are left. Please check below for a visual guide of all 10 snakes and which ones are confirmed still alive, and which ones we do not know about.

Visual Guide | Which snakes are still alive?

5 of the 6 snakes still alive are confirmed: Benjamin (seen), Greta (seen), William (seen), Poptart (mentioned) and Bonnie (mentioned).

This leaves 4 snakes unconfirmed out of which 3 would have passed away: Meryl, Waffles, Reggie or Helen.

[DaylightAmy]

Mary streamed in November 2018 and has deleted the stream from her Twitch channel afterwards, so only the people who tuned in live know what was said, however most of the snakes having passed away came up.

Additional confirmed deaths are Ben and Meryl. Only Greta is confirmed alive. The impression was given only 2 snakes were left.

[DaylightAmy]

Unfortunately Mary confirmed on Patreon that 9 out of 10 snakes have passed away from "an infectious disease" and only Greta is still alive.

What happened to the snakes?
Mary mentions in this vlog (https://youtu.be/Cc4rHJ_EF_k?t=250) last year that Greta was diagnoised with Respiratory Infection (RI) - this is the most common/best known 'infectious disease' (it's an actual infection) diagnosed in pet snakes. RI is very dangerous for snakes and though there are no official statistics, is known among snake owners to often lead to death, with treatment only rarely being effective. This would explain why only 1 of the snakes ended up surviving - this would not be related to the fact that Greta is a Woma python, Womas are just as susceptible to RI and in fact she was the first after Pancake's passing to show signs of RI.

https://www.petmd.com/reptile/species/ball-python
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Snakes/ ... ealth-101/

Above two sources explain a little more about RI. Unfortunately as both sources state, RI is almost always the result of poor care, poor hygiene, poor housing or stress.

RI can be prevented by:
- Carefully maintaining the correct humidity and temperature in the snake's enclosure.
- Maintaining good hygiene in your snake's enclosure.
- Frequently and thoroughly checking your snake and their enclosure for signs of issues.
- Limiting stress for your snake as much as possible.

What could have caused an RI outbreak?
Mary has mentioned "mouldy bedding" in a comment on Instagram in the past, but unless a key part of information is not being shared, it's just extremely unlikely that that is the sole or main cause of the situation.
- Mouldy bedding does not cause instant RI; frequent checks and good tank conditions would prevent it from having any effect at all.
- We already know that the first snake (Pancake) died due to negligence (on Ken's part) and this is most likely where the outbreak started.
- Mary mentioned the mouldy bedding in the second half of the year - the RI outbreak started at the start of the year.

The most likely cause would have been a combination of the following circumstances...
1. The drawer system the snakes were being kept in made it near impossible to ensure optimal temperature and humidity, which makes the snakes vulnerable and can cause stress.
2. Ken moved the drawer systems into the storm shelter because "the snakes were stinking up the house"; snakes shouldn't smell if their enclosures are kept clean. This is a sign of poor hygiene.
3. The storm shelter may have had poor ventilation and/or affected the temperature/humidity stability in the drawers.
4. Ken then did not check on the snakes for at least 5 days; this makes way for poor hygiene and bad temp/humidity to cause issues.
5. Once the first snake is affected the others are in danger as well, especially when living in a drawer system where their enclosures are close together and physically connected to each other.
6. Due to them having a very large number of snakes, it becomes difficult to very thoroughly check the wellbeing and conditions of each snake closely enough to know when something is or isn't wrong.

Our Issue
GG has stated many times before that we were concerned about drawer systems in general, but especially their makeshift drawer system.

Another issue we've had that played into this was the fact that Mary insisted that "having 2 snakes or 20 snakes is the same amount of work", which above events kind of disprove... cleaning 10 tanks was a lot more work than cleaning 2. Checking 10 snakes carefully is a lot more work than checking on 2. Paying vet bills for 10 snakes is a lot more expensive than for 2. The mentality she was promoting (which is - "snakes are super easy, I'm a pro at this, stop questioning my hoarding") is harmful. There is a difference between having different amounts of snakes, and buying them in large lots at a time and then mocking people who are concerned is irresponsible.

Additionally Mary decided to tie her audience into her snake ownership - she took it upon herself to educate people on snakes and snake care, when she did not need to - and even let Patrons name the snakes. If you're going to take the stage to claim yourself an expert (and dismiss people expressing concern for the wellbeing of your animals) then you also need to have the backbone to stay on stage when that same audience needs to learn from your poor decision making.

Losing pets is painful, taking responsibility for that even moreso, but part of the problem is that some of the factors that caused this really sad situation were pointed out early on and this could have been prevented - other people can learn from that, especially people who believed her when she said to get lots of snakes because it's "super easy", making a DIY drawer system is risk-free and when your snakes smell you just move them out of the house.

The GuruGossip SMF community wants to make very clear that we do not think Mary caused this situation on purpose, and we take no joy in how this story has ended. We would have much preferred to have been proven wrong by the snakes living long, happy, healthy lives. We are sure Mary, in her own way and within her own means, did everything she could to try and save them once she realized they were dangerously sick. We are in no way implying Mary did this on purpose, or did not care about her snakes at all. Our issue is that she (as per usual) too quickly considered herself an expert, made bad choices and dished out some seriously bad advice, dismissed and ignored very reasonable concerns expressed (that could have prevented this) and now will not be as publicly accountable as she was publicly irresponsible.

Rest in peace Benjamin, Meryl, Bonnie, Waffles, Poptart, Reginald, Nanners/Helen, William and Pancake.