Sam Pepper - Part 3

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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fleur-delis wrote:
JuniperJones wrote:And once again, I have to reiterate that while I am not a fan of Sam Pepper, I am even less of a fan of "rape culture" and the "listen and believe" narrative. As far as Sam Pepper is concerned, he didn't have to address the rumors at all if he didn't want to because it is not on him to prove his innocence... it is on the person making the claim of rape to prove it happened. That is called the burden of proof, and the onus does not exist on the person rejecting the claim. He's smarmy, he's a douche bag and even in his zeal to profess his innocence and clear his name, he exposed himself as being fake. But there is no proof he raped anyone.

This has happened to Tobuscus most recently, and apparently this "rape culture" is so bad that apparently Tumblr is where you go to report a crime, not the police because they're bad and won't believe you so why not crucify someone's reputation and credibility, because "Why would someone lie about rape?" Hell, I don't know... why did Calum McSwiggan lie about a hate crime? It happens... and as an LGBT individual and a liberal, it's scary seeing this kind of mob mentality gain credence among my fellow liberals.
Clearly, you have no idea what 'rape culture' means because you're using it in the wrong context. It describes a society in which sexual assault is largely tolarated and accepted as normal - like most Western societies at the moment.

There are so many problems with 'inncoent until proven guilty' in the context of sexual assault as well, but we've been into that in this thread.

During the time that I've worked as a counsellor for women who have been sexually assaulted, I've had almost no cases where proof was available. Doesn't mean that they were lying (but I can't prove that they weren't). So should they have kept their mouth shut? They did, mostly, in all public spaces. No police involvement (i've had two cases where we did involve the police, that's it), sometimes not even the families. These brave women who have come forward via Tumblr etc deserve all the respect because it is never easy.
I'm truly at a loss for those who don't understand what rape culture actually is. Thank you, fleur-delis for saying what you have. It couldn't have been better put.
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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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fleur-delis wrote:
JuniperJones wrote:And once again, I have to reiterate that while I am not a fan of Sam Pepper, I am even less of a fan of "rape culture" and the "listen and believe" narrative. As far as Sam Pepper is concerned, he didn't have to address the rumors at all if he didn't want to because it is not on him to prove his innocence... it is on the person making the claim of rape to prove it happened. That is called the burden of proof, and the onus does not exist on the person rejecting the claim. He's smarmy, he's a douche bag and even in his zeal to profess his innocence and clear his name, he exposed himself as being fake. But there is no proof he raped anyone.

This has happened to Tobuscus most recently, and apparently this "rape culture" is so bad that apparently Tumblr is where you go to report a crime, not the police because they're bad and won't believe you so why not crucify someone's reputation and credibility, because "Why would someone lie about rape?" Hell, I don't know... why did Calum McSwiggan lie about a hate crime? It happens... and as an LGBT individual and a liberal, it's scary seeing this kind of mob mentality gain credence among my fellow liberals.
Clearly, you have no idea what 'rape culture' means because you're using it in the wrong context. It describes a society in which sexual assault is largely tolarated and accepted as normal - like most Western societies at the moment.

There are so many problems with 'inncoent until proven guilty' in the context of sexual assault as well, but we've been into that in this thread.

During the time that I've worked as a counsellor for women who have been sexually assaulted, I've had almost no cases where proof was available. Doesn't mean that they were lying (but I can't prove that they weren't). So should they have kept their mouth shut? They did, mostly, in all public spaces. No police involvement (i've had two cases where we did involve the police, that's it), sometimes not even the families. These brave women who have come forward via Tumblr etc deserve all the respect because it is never easy.
Where in western society is rape seen as acceptable? You point it out to me and show me the pervasive culture surrounding it... because this is just hysterical paranoia BS. Western society abhors rape... you'll be hard pressed to find any mainstream movement or group or ideology that accepts and tolerates rape, so please shut that nonsense up. Instead if applauding Tumblr posts, we should be encouraging rape victims -- and it's not just women FYI -- to report their attacks as soon as possible, not to be afraid of the police or to fear scrutiny or questions, because skepticism is healthy... skepticism is how you get to the truth. So you can try turning it around all you want, but let you have your way, all you need to convict someone is a story because "listen and believe" is the narrative. Not facts or evidence. Sorry, but if there is no evidence, you cannot say with certainty that a rape occurred, so doubt is valid.

They don't deserve praise for coming forward on Tumblr... their stories should be investigated and scrutinized, like April Eff and Tobuscus, who she claims raped her. She said he raped her and provided no evidence for it except a story... he said he didn't rape her, and provided nothing but a video saying he didn't do it. So who do you believe? Meanwhile, the onus is not on him to prove he didn't rape her... she's making the claim. But if he's saying he didn't do it, why not listen and believe in that instance?

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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And FYI, I'm not defending Sam Pepper or Tobuscus... I'm defend the legal system, because apparently a lot of you don't seem to care how it works, and want to usurp the legal process and hang someone out to dry based on the accusation alone. Sorry, fleur-delis, but your post was dangerously ignorant and indicative of how you think subjective experiences trump objectivity.

But, I am REALLY itching for you to give me an example of ANY western society that tolerates rape or treats it as normal. I'll check back in.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/exa ... e-culture/

Or, more recently, the Stanford case:
“His life will never be the one that he dreamed about and worked so hard to achieve,” Dan A. Turner wrote in a letter arguing that his son should receive probation, not jail time. “That is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... -offender/

What you're talking about is mob mentality which is also wrong. People are being judged without proper evidence based on unedited claims. They should go to the police and shouldn't jeopardise a possible prosecution by posting about it on Tumblr.
I usually use my phone - autocorrect (Swype) mistakes are unintentional.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

Post by fleur-delis »

JuniperJones wrote:And FYI, I'm not defending Sam Pepper or Tobuscus... I'm defend the legal system, because apparently a lot of you don't seem to care how it works, and want to usurp the legal process and hang someone out to dry based on the accusation alone. Sorry, fleur-delis, but your post was dangerously ignorant and indicative of how you think subjective experiences trump objectivity.

But, I am REALLY itching for you to give me an example of ANY western society that tolerates rape or treats it as normal. I'll check back in.
I know how the legal system works, but in my opinion (and in that of many others), it has fatal flaws. The legal system doesn't work with sexual assault. The perpetrators are almost never prosecuted, there is no jail time, no justice. The 'victims' (not a fan of that word, but I'll use it to make it clear) are often retraumatized because interrogation methods that are commonly used just don't work in those cases, they make everything worse. That's why victims are right to fear going to the police in most cases. Physical evidence is the only way they'd ever sin in court, without it they don't stand a chance. In order for there to be physical evidence, they would have had to be able to tell someone what happened within a day or so - mostly not a possibility.

As for rape culture, I didn't say that a society tolerates rape but sexual assault. It is way to simple if you think of it as people accepting women being raped in the street lol. It's telling girls not to wear short skirts because they are asking for it, it's sexual assault in marriages that is looked at as 'marital rights' (not officially of course, this is not about laws), it's about how it's normal for guys to touch girls inappropriately in clubs without having to face consequences, it's sexist media images.. All that is rape culture and if you can't see that in today's Western societies, then I truly don't know anymore lol.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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Society in which rape is seen as 'acceptable' is not people screaming about how fantastic rape is, it never has been. It's microaggresions, subconscious things taught from childhood onward, things that lead people to feel ashamed about their assault, like it was their fault, ect ect. There's also the idea that men have been raised to feel entitled to women, among other things. But I won't start about that here, it's messy and not entirely useful to the discussion.
Instead of going 'omg just go to the police', you need to look at the reason people don't go in the first place. People make stories on public media because they feel shut down by police, their voices silenced. They're scared and they feel like even if they report it, nothing will happen. Above, Fleur has pretty much added everything else I can think of right now, lol.

Your idea of "innocent is proven guilty" is irrelevant if it only pertains to one side of the argument.
Criminalizing victims and having them jump through impossible flaming hoops to prove themselves? Not cool.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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ClipClap wrote:http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/exa ... e-culture/

Or, more recently, the Stanford case:
“His life will never be the one that he dreamed about and worked so hard to achieve,” Dan A. Turner wrote in a letter arguing that his son should receive probation, not jail time. “That is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... -offender/

What you're talking about is mob mentality which is also wrong. People are being judged without proper evidence based on unedited claims. They should go to the police and shouldn't jeopardise a possible prosecution by posting about it on Tumblr.
I'm sorry, but that article (which I have read before) is absolutely horrible. Those "examples" denote nothing about society overall and only pinpointed isolated incidents. And the Stanford rape case? Who applauded the verdict? Who applauded the judge making that asinine decision? Who applauded the judge talking about the girl's "chronological age"? NO ONE!!! Why would you link an article with refuted dated, and debunked numbers about rape cases? Furthermore, the Stanford rape case is recent.. this can't be the only example of actual "rape culture" you could find.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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So basically "rape culture" is whatever you define to be rape culture? I'm done with this third wave feminist drivel. I asked for proof, you provided none. It's rhetoric like yours that will lead to more rapes, not less, because you vilify people who try to give tips on how to prevent being a victim of sexual assault (because apparently that's blaming the victim) and think we should "teach men not to rape" as if MEN don't already it's wrong to rape someone, including the ones that rape.
Mimikyu wrote:Society in which rape is seen as 'acceptable' is not people screaming about how fantastic rape is, it never has been. It's microaggresions, subconscious things taught from childhood onward, things that lead people to feel ashamed about their assault, like it was their fault, ect ect. There's also the idea that men have been raised to feel entitled to women, among other things. But I won't start about that here, it's messy and not entirely useful to the discussion.
Instead of going 'omg just go to the police', you need to look at the reason people don't go in the first place. People make stories on public media because they feel shut down by police, their voices silenced. They're scared and they feel like even if they report it, nothing will happen. Above, Fleur has pretty much added everything else I can think of right now, lol.

Your idea of "innocent is proven guilty" is irrelevant if it only pertains to one side of the argument.
Criminalizing victims and having them jump through impossible flaming hoops to prove themselves? Not cool.
And this is precisely what I mean. "Listen and believe", "Poliece are bad", "Microaggressions" (Don't even care... how vague can you be? What "microagressions"? That's just open-ended). What men have been raised to feel entitled to women? This is garbage!!! You want to combat a real rape culture? Go to the middle east!! Look over at Cologne, Germany, and the thousands of women assaulted by refugees. Cliterectomies going on in Africa and the middle east. The fact that women are subjugated and regarded as second class citizens in Saudi Arabia. THAT'S rape culture. You're just a bunch of whiny people looking for victimhood for your first world existence. And ban me from this stupid thread and page for all I care, because this is just ridiculous and dangerous drivel.

I'm so glad the majority of western women are turned off by feminism.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

Post by fleur-delis »

I don't even know why we bother to argue with you, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, especially that 'thousands of women have been assaulted by refugees in Cologne' bullshit. I've been involved in the cases and the propaganda surrounding it is just horrific, used by right-wing extremists to support their cahse. There have been a ton of incidents, some of them by refugees, but also others - Germans - like at every major festival. The Oktoberfest, for example, covers up every year that tons of women are assaulted by drunk men who feel like 'it's just a bit of fun' and they 'were asking for it' by wearing short dresses - the traditional clothing in Bavaria.
Rape chlture is everywhere around us and refusing to acknowledge that is the problem right there, that's why we still have to deal with that.

The feminist movement is actually pretty big, with lots of male allies, too. Not sure where you are getting from that the majority of women is against it lol

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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Unbelievable, why would anyone be glad that there are people who have misunderstood feminism and are against it. Feminism is a great and incredibly needed movement, who wouldn't want everyone to be equal, who wouldn't want people to throw away stupid societal expectations which just hurt men and women.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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Lmfao..........
"Microaggressions are the everyday verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether intentional or unintentional, which communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative messages to target persons based solely upon their marginalized group membership." wow that google search was really hard
so difficult

I've said it already, but it's all between the lines. Subliminal messages, if you will. "Boys will be boys" is a classic example- moving blame off boys because...... they're boys? Like they can't be responsible for their actions and punished accordingly? It's in our media, our every day phrases, I spend my free time analyzing this stuff? Just because it's not right in front of your face with flashing neon lights surrounding it doesn't mean it's not there.

"It's rhetoric like yours that will lead to more rapes, not less, because you vilify people who try to give tips on how to prevent being a victim of sexual assault (because apparently that's blaming the victim) and think we should "teach men not to rape" as if MEN don't already it's wrong to rape someone, including the ones that rape."

So.... what are your tips to not be sexually assaulted? I'm curious, are they "Here's some self defense tips and some tools to help you if you are attacked" or "Literally do not go out at all. Whatsoever. Just stay in your house it's all you gotta do" or even perhaps.... "Don't dress yourselves how you wanna dress, you are not allowed to feel sexy and confident in your lower cut shirt because it makes you someone who's asking for it. Acceptability politics are cool kids."

And sorry I can't really be bothered writing you a thesis on all of this with 200 verified sources? Because I have better things to do with my life than spend two weeks educating someone with their fingers in their ears like a child.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

Post by Mimikyu »

Although for anyone who may actually be interested on learning:

Boys & Rape Culture ; Teaching boys not to rape
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I think this last one is more of a discussion opener, but it's still an interesting read.

Male Entitlement & the 'Boys will be Boys' sentiment ;
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Media & It's Influence on us as a Society ;
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And i'll leave it there for now. Found a thesis that looked very interesting, and cam in full, but didn't have the time to read it.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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It just struck me how insane it is for JuniperJones to say that even the men who rape know that rape is wrong. If they know it's wrong then why is there INSANE amount of rape and sexual assault targeted towards women (and men) all over the world. If they know it's wrong why do they do it. I feel like JuniperJones looks at rape as something that can't be changed when it comes to men, that it is a bad thing and even rapists know it's bad, but that men won't ever change anyway, so let's put all of the blame and the responsibility to not be raped on women. Everything sits on women's shoulders, if men get caught then punish them sure, but never divert the attention to maybe looking at who commits the crime and how to fix the source problem?
Why do people blame victims? I feel it really is because people are actually terrified that at the end of the day, all the bad things CAN happen to them, they need to find something that the victim did wrong to then tell themselves that it wasn't just a random occurrence, that the victims did something wrong and to keep this false sense of security of it never happening to them. But you can be in a car accident which wasn't your fault and within moments you will never be able to walk again, you can have three locks on your door and get burgled, you can have a healthy lifestyle and get cancer, you can cover yourself as much as you want and be walking home from your first self-defense class and get raped. And by all means, let's teach all children self defense from an early age, but it doesn't have to be either/or, it should be both. No one is saying 'oh, be totally carefree, nothing bad will ever happen to you' and I truly don't think many people would think like that - man or a woman.
I haven't kept up with the movement, but in Nairobi they have 'Your Moment of Truth' programs, specifically designed to bring in boys to work to prevent rapes from their side, this is the next step, once we stop seeing rape from the standpoint of the victim doing all 100 things wrong for it to happen to them, we can start educating the other sex to be part of the solution. And the last I checked it seems to be making a difference. This is what, I personally, love about feminism and being in this equal rights movement, you don't assume that men are not capable of learning or helping or being rational adults who respect other men and women. We can empower women all we want, but women are not on this planet alone. It's great to forget stereotypes of women and empower us, but we can't then look down on men and assume they can't handle change or responsibility or a reevaluation of masculinity or respecting other people's bodies and independence.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

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ElizabethMarks wrote:It just struck me how insane it is for JuniperJones to say that even the men who rape know that rape is wrong. If they know it's wrong then why is there INSANE amount of rape and sexual assault targeted towards women (and men) all over the world. If they know it's wrong why do they do it. I feel like JuniperJones looks at rape as something that can't be changed when it comes to men, that it is a bad thing and even rapists know it's bad, but that men won't ever change anyway, so let's put all of the blame and the responsibility to not be raped on women. Everything sits on women's shoulders, if men get caught then punish them sure, but never divert the attention to maybe looking at who commits the crime and how to fix the source problem?
Why do people blame victims? I feel it really is because people are actually terrified that at the end of the day, all the bad things CAN happen to them, they need to find something that the victim did wrong to then tell themselves that it wasn't just a random occurrence, that the victims did something wrong and to keep this false sense of security of it never happening to them. But you can be in a car accident which wasn't your fault and within moments you will never be able to walk again, you can have three locks on your door and get burgled, you can have a healthy lifestyle and get cancer, you can cover yourself as much as you want and be walking home from your first self-defense class and get raped. And by all means, let's teach all children self defense from an early age, but it doesn't have to be either/or, it should be both. No one is saying 'oh, be totally carefree, nothing bad will ever happen to you' and I truly don't think many people would think like that - man or a woman.
I haven't kept up with the movement, but in Nairobi they have 'Your Moment of Truth' programs, specifically designed to bring in boys to work to prevent rapes from their side, this is the next step, once we stop seeing rape from the standpoint of the victim doing all 100 things wrong for it to happen to them, we can start educating the other sex to be part of the solution. And the last I checked it seems to be making a difference. This is what, I personally, love about feminism and being in this equal rights movement, you don't assume that men are not capable of learning or helping or being rational adults who respect other men and women. We can empower women all we want, but women are not on this planet alone. It's great to forget stereotypes of women and empower us, but we can't then look down on men and assume they can't handle change or responsibility or a reevaluation of masculinity or respecting other people's bodies and independence.
I'm addressing this and then I'm done with this third wave first world feminist whine tasting class. The men who rape know rape is wrong because 9 times out of 10, that rapist tries to allude being caught, no? Does he/she proudly proclaim that they just raped someone? Sex is a consensual act between two (or more) people, so the act of rape involves removing the right of another human being to consent to sex. Do you really think most men don't know when the other person is saying no? Or when the other person is incapable of consenting to sex, i.e. drunken blackouts or drugged? Even the Stanford rape case... you know how he knew it was wrong? Because when he was caught, he ran the hell away!! Newsflash: most people who murder, rapes, steal, or harm someone already know it's wrong to do so... but they do it anyway.

I don't really care what you personally feel like my personal views are because you don't know me to make that judgment. I'll say this: your rhetoric puts the onus entirely on men as if A. The majority of men in society don't already know it's wrong to rape someone, B. That rape is a behavior that is even condoned by the majority of men, and C. As though WOMEN don't are incapable of rape. For all your talk about women being victims, women can also be perpetrators, so why not extend this rape lesson to ALL of society instead of just one.

Who is victim blaming??? Where in anything I said did I victim blame? I'm tired of that stupid strawman and it's useless. Guess what? If you give someone tips on how not get robbed, or how to defend themselves against bullies, you're not preemptively blaming them if they get robbed or they get beaten up by a bully. Telling women and men to watch their surroundings, not to accept drinks from strangers, watch their alcohol intake in public, or not to leave their drinks unattended is not blaming the victim!! And don't even with the "what were you wearing?" line because that is some straight out of TV nonsense that NO ONE with a brain would ask the victim of a sexual assault.

I don't like this new wave feminism. Feminism at its core beginning had a cause and a message that resonated truth because women were not equal to men. Now, I challenge you to tell me what right in the western world do men have that women don't? What is "mansplaining?" "Triggers?" Modern feminism vilifies men as wielders of the patriarchal tyranny, spewing their toxic masculinity all over the planet. I am an egalitarian... I do believe that men and women are equal, and don't hold one as being more superior than the other. Modern day feminism tries to paint women as both superior and inferior to men, whichever works for them at that moment. Feminism is by its name a movement geared towards women, not men. Modern day feminism cares more about feelings over fact. The Duke Lacrosse scandal? Football player Brian Banks lost 5 years of his life over a rape he did not commit, but where are feminists talking about that??? Because they don't care... because it doesn't fit the "listen and believe" narrative. Because skepticism and asking questions is automatically blaming the victim.

Enough of this. Sam Pepper may very well be a raping sociopathic asshole, but there is no evidence that he is anything other than a creepy jailbait loving pervert who lies more than he takes in oxygen.

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

Post by Spankalicious »

What the hell is this guy doing now? How is he earning a living????Is some stupid female supporting his useless ass? He hasn't been on YT in months. His tweets are stupid and only get like 100 likes or so. How is he still able to live in the US??? He probably stays in all day watching Jake Paul videos, mumbling to himself, "that could have been meeeeee!"

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Re: Sam Pepper - Part 3

Post by Jayna »

I know Sam's not the most popular person around here, but he's been live streaming for the past few months and is honestly pretty entertaining. He and his friend Evan just started a 4 day stream where they're starting off in only their underwear and have to live strictly off of donations to the stream. They need to get money for clothes, food, shelter, and they're going to try to travel to another state. I know most of you probably aren't interested, but for those that are, he's Sam Pepper Live on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdSr4x ... S1aGnCUMTA

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