Xiaxue Part 3

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HMM888
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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

Post by HMM888 »

But i think it's a little 'naive' to think that this big "boom" of plastic surgery in asia (especially in Korea for example) has nothing to do with beauty standards that are spread all around the world . I don't think people who get work done systematically want to be white (even if we all agree that Xiaxue has definitively a white-complex) but i think theyr rather trying to reach beauty standards mostly ruled by white people
(studing/working in fashion industry, i can tell you that i know what i'm talkin about) : in some kind of way, theses standards are "picked off" various caracterictics (Caucasians' thin nose, full lips of African, soft skin of Asians, booty of Latinas... LOL etc etc) but as far as everyone cannot have -naturally- in the same time the lips of the african, the nose of caucasians, the skin of an asian, this beauy ideal can have some alienating aspects..... (even for white people, that's why i think everyone is, in some kind of, way, 'victim' of these beauty standards, except if -like me- you are wise enough to (at least try to) get over it =)
There is definitely a "global" beauty standard, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with race or particular regions, it's just more of evolutionary/instinctive standards for attractiveness that all humans have evolved to like (like a 0.7 waist to hip ratio). People just associate those features with certain regions because those are areas where those traits are more likely to occur but it doesn't mean that other races can't have those traits, it just not as predominant.

As for "beauty standards being ruled by white people" I still think you are speaking from a western-centric point of view, even working in the fashion industry is not going to make you neutral---speaking generally, working in a western region which will impose it's particular set of cultural standards and catering to a western audience that will also influence those standards. However its ridiculous to assume that the rest of the world is looking to those standards as well to aspire to- I mean that's basically saying 30% of earth is aspiring to look like the other 30%....(Yes there is cultural exchange around the world but it's not that one sided where one is dominating the other half)


For example, I find it interesting that the idea of a Caucasian nose keeps being brought up as something Asians are supposedly dying to have, what kind of nose would you say that you are picturing?

Realistically Caucasian noses tend to be oversized, with a humped or broken looking bridge and a tip that is too large or angled too high. (A nose which is stereotypically associated with the French, British, Italians, Greeks or people of the Jewish heritage, think classical art and statues)

However that is probably not the so called "Caucasian" nose that you are picturing right? You are picturing one that has a smooth bridge, a nose tip that proportional to the nostrils and one that not too high off the face and not too low?

Sorry but the one you are picturing is simply an "ideal nose", it's not a "Caucasian" nose because it doesn't occur any more often in Caucasians than it does in Asians. So when Asians get their bridges raised and when Caucasians get their bridges shaved, they're not trying to emulate the respective races- they're just trying to reach an universally accepted ideal of what is beautiful. (I'm speaking conventionally of course, noses that aren't ideal are beautiful too because they are perfect for the faces they were made with).


And one last thing, almond eyes (found often in Asians and other races) have been shown to be considered a more feminine trait than rounder eyes (not that both can be beautiful, they are) Most Asians that get their eyes done retain their original almond eye shape excluding the super dramatic transformations you see on plastic surgery websites.
So okay, it's not because of white people that whitenish skin is more appreciate din Asia for example (aristocracy has always been a beauty ideal in many cultures & civilisation), but this "trend" of having this small nose+big eyes+thin face... hm i don't know, it's strange...
When i read Vogue Nippon or China, i'm surprised to see so much white girls - i don't say they should be banished ! lol ..but it's strange.. like, if it wouldn't be written in japanese, i wouldn't have guessed it's Vogue Nippon '_'
quote]

That may just be Vogue or other international magazines (well they're based in the west so of course they have western models, plus they probably have content that gets translated for reuse in other countries), most Asia only magazines I've see use Asian models almost exclusively.
It's a good sign if in Asian shows about beautiful celebrity they are mostly asian, but i guess if they didn't already had plastic surgery to ehance their beauty, haha ![/
Celebrities in every country get plastic surgery, it's not something that is exclusive to Asian celebrities NOR do they do it more than celebrities in other countries. Also there are plenty of Asian celebrities who have not had any surgery and they're considered some of the most beautiful people in the world.
*omg, i did some mispealling in my previous post and i cannot edit it anymore ! sorrry ! :o
-> i'd like to say *"(...)Eastern Asia (and no West Asia) whom belong Xiaxue"
I'm Chinese American and I think I have a relatively balanced and neutral viewpoint of eastern and western culture, one thing I notice is the West's appalling lack of knowledge about Asia and the different cultures within it, that combined with a feeling of superiority, brings about these misconceptions about "asians trying to look white".

Even saying Eastern Asia, and I'm saying this as someone who has travelled all around different countries in the region, does not mean anything appearance wise. China by itself is a region that could encompass all of Europe, with a population to match, the appearances there are incredibly diverse- the majority of the population there is Han but there are also 50 ethnic tribes that live there who are distinctive both culturally and appearance wise!

Westerner's have a very limited, cliched viewpoint of what they think an "asian" person looks like- I myself constantly get asked if I'm [blank, insert ethnicity here] because people in the west have not been able to see a range of Asian cultures (usually just that one or two particular ethnic group that lives in their area) because that is the only one they know. Which is why when asians get surgery, and their appearance no longer matches the specific idea of what an "asian" person looks like to that westerner, than they just jump to the conclusion that oh, this person no longer looks "as asian" to me so therefore they must be going for the alternative, which is caucasian!

("oh well Asians all have small eyes and flat noses and only Non Asians can have large eyes and high noses so any Asian trying to make their eyes bigger or nose higher must also be trying to be non Asian")


I'm going to repeat this again, all of Asia does not have one particular eye size, or even eye shape (certain traits like a mongolian fold yes but not one distinctive overall shape), or nose shape (I am not including India in this mix, I am talking about Eastern asia- China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, ETC ETC. Dont' forget Asia is a region that holds 60% of the world population) The features that Asian's have plastic surgery to get are NOT Caucasian because they do not occur in Caucasians any more often than they do in any other other race, they are just "ideal" features dictated by years of evolution and are features that are found in "beautiful" people of every race.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/niptuck-na ... d=16205231

Plastic surgery by percentage:

#1) South Korea
#2) Greece
#3) Italy
#4) Brazil
#5) Colombia
#6) USA
#7) Taiwan

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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As for Xiaxue- she is an exception, a weirdo that you should not associate with any country, her psychological issues with appearance and race are not representative of the rest of asia.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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EDIT: Forgot to add this part to the top:
....Sorry but the one you are picturing is simply an "ideal nose", it's not a "Caucasian" nose because it doesn't occur any more often in Caucasians than it does in Asians. So when Asians get their bridges raised and when Caucasians get their bridges shaved, they're not trying to emulate the respective races- they're just trying to reach an universally accepted ideal of what is beautiful. (I'm speaking conventionally of course, noses that aren't ideal are beautiful too because they are perfect for the faces they were made with).


And one last thing, almond eyes (found often in Asians and other races) have been shown to be considered a more feminine trait than rounder eyes (not that both can be beautiful, they are) Most Asians that get their eyes done retain their original almond eye shape excluding the super dramatic transformations you see on plastic surgery websites.



Also forehead implants (for a rounder forehead, considered a traditionally feminine trait) and fat grafting (for a fuller younger face) is extremely popular in Korea, Caucasians tend to have flat, sloped foreheads with low set brows (considered masculine traits) with angular faces and minimal fat pads on the cheeks (this is why they say Asian's age more slowly than other races, they have fuller fat pads on their cheeks which they retain longer which is why they tend to look more youthful as they get older than other races) would you still say they are trying to look Caucasian? A rounder forehead is traditionally an African trait actually.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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^ funny how you get offended by stereotypes yet you try to praise Asians as much as you can and trying to put Caucasians down by saying they have masculine traits ;)
and at the same time Asians age slower than others, which is bs, sorry. If you dislike stereotypes then be consistent with it and stay neutral.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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I think this is very interesting regarding nose humps and foreheads

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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bottle111 wrote:^ funny how you get offended by stereotypes yet you try to praise Asians as much as you can and trying to put Caucasians down by saying they have masculine traits ;)
and at the same time Asians age slower than others, which is bs, sorry. If you dislike stereotypes then be consistent with it and stay neutral.
I'm not saying Caucasian traits are masculine, I'm saying they have some features that are considered more masculine than feminine. Studies actually show that hyper feminine faces and hyper masculine faces are actually considered unattractive and that the best looking looking ones are the ones that look "average" (mathematically not average looking) aka they have a a mixture of both.

Here are some links

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/feb/cover#.UgaAaFPk_aM

http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/news-cms/news/ ... 7&id=41272

http://petapixel.com/2013/05/28/what-av ... an-beauty/

Also I never said that Asians age slower, that's a ridiculous statement to make- the laws of physics and time apply to everyone equally. I simply said they tend to look younger than other races as they get older because they are genetically predisposed to have fuller fat pads on their cheeks. Everyone has full fat pads when they are young, most obviously from a babys chubby cheeks, as people get older they lose the fat on their faces and it ages them because then they look gaunt- Asian's tend to retain the fat on their faces longer so they look younger for their age which is beneficial as you get older. There is science that correlates this.


As for the plastic surgery examples, I'm not sure what your point is-- if you're trying to imply that's what an average asian person looks like (with a flat forehead and a humped nose) I wouldn't say those are good examples to choose from since the reason they are getting plastic surgery is because they don't look like everyone else and that they are trying to fit in. In other words the patients shown on those sites are specifically "unaverage" and they're chosen so the surgeon can display the most dramatic results.

I did my best not to stereotype and I'm not sure where I did (I mentioned stereotypes but I never implied it was a personal belief, I'm obviously aware that they are stereotypes and there not something that can be applied to everyone) but it's hard to speak on such broad subjects as race, culture and appearance without making generalizations.

You seem to be looking for an argument when there doesn't have to be one, I'm not sure where you were getting the idea where I was "praising" asians and putting down caucasians"? If anything the point I was trying to make is the world is a diverse place of cultural exchange, and that there is no ONE standard for beauty and that there is beauty in every culture.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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Sorry but the one you are picturing is simply an "ideal nose", it's not a "Caucasian" nose because it doesn't occur any more often in Caucasians than it does in Asians. So when Asians get their bridges raised and when Caucasians get their bridges shaved, they're not trying to emulate the respective races- they're just trying to reach an universally accepted ideal of what is beautiful. (I'm speaking conventionally of course, noses that aren't ideal are beautiful too because they are perfect for the faces they were made with).


And one last thing, almond eyes (found often in Asians and other races) have been shown to be considered a more feminine trait than rounder eyes (not that both can be beautiful, they are)

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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HMM888 wrote:As for Xiaxue- she is an exception, a weirdo that you should not associate with any country, her psychological issues with appearance and race are not representative of the rest of asia.
exactly ! lol
bottle111 wrote:^ funny how you get offended by stereotypes yet you try to praise Asians as much as you can and trying to put Caucasians down by saying they have masculine traits ;)
and at the same time Asians age slower than others, which is bs, sorry. If you dislike stereotypes then be consistent with it and stay neutral.
lol !
I heard that Black people tend to age more slowly too (because their skin is thicker, and maybe there is genetics issues...)
(...)The features that Asian's have plastic surgery to get are NOT Caucasian because they do not occur in Caucasians any more often than they do in any other other race, they are just "ideal" features dictated by years of evolution and are features that are found in "beautiful" people of every race.
Hm i don't think so, "beautiful features" are not universal (as i understood by "every race" but maybe i'm rong ;-) ): i don't think large amont of people in the world will find Giraffe women beautiful even though they are considered beautiful in their own cultures - same for facial scarifications in some African traditionnal cultures....
Also in some countries in Africa, whiter skin are considered more beautiful (and this leads some -stupid, sorry but i think it's very stupid- women to use very dangerous whitenning product on their skin) Having a whiter skin hasn't always been an ideal in Africa : a loooong time ago, when some African saw for the 1st time white people, they thought they were ghosts and they've been frightened to death because it's was something so strange & shocking to see !!! lol
So i think beauty standard use to be differents according to the cultures and/or the period, but since fews decade, they became global (every woman "have to" fit in them) with a strong influence of Western culture, so that's why i talked about some alienating aspects....
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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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I think there is an overarching "universal" ideal (healthy skin and hair, bright eye) and there are specific cultural ideas of beauty (bound feet in china, victorian corsets, sharpened teeth, the neck thing, coned skulls, scarification etc etc) that may contradict those things.

In that instance there are biological impulses in all human beings that dictate what is attractive, basically traits that indicate a person's reproductive health, evolution drives people to look for mates that will be able to pass on their genetics, physical traits like healthy skin hair eyes/looking youthful indicate to our subconscious brain that they are.

For example did you know when you first meet someone you subconsciously assess the symmetry of their face in the first 6 seconds? Weird right? Its because symmetry usually indicates reproductive health (one does not produce the other but biologically they are linked) which is true for humans and animals.

And then there's the stuff you mentioned above and the stuff I mentioned (like the bound feet, scarification) which are cultural ideals of beauty, and yes they may contradict the biological ideals or they may just go on top.

So basically attractiveness is both biological (subconscious) and cultural (conscious) with parts that may or may not clash.

And yes, studies do show that the melanin (pigment) in the skin correlates with how much it reacts to the effects of aging which is a benefit HOWEVER it also causes scarring to be darker and more long lasting. So really there's pros and cons to all types of skin.

http://www.webmd.com/beauty/aging/how-l ... aging-skin

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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HMM888 wrote:As for Xiaxue- she is an exception, a weirdo that you should not associate with any country, her psychological issues with appearance and race are not representative of the rest of asia.
have you ever notice that when it's a xiaxue post it all boils down to racism?
the only 100% truth to this is she's ashamed of her own. one may agree or disagree bout all the theories when it comes to aesthetics. it's all subjective.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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Yeah I actually do agree that she seems ashamed.. Maybe I am misinterpreting her but I guess she is not well spoken enough to defend herself/convince me otherwise...

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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HMM888 wrote:
bottle111 wrote:^ funny how you get offended by stereotypes yet you try to praise Asians as much as you can and trying to put Caucasians down by saying they have masculine traits ;)
and at the same time Asians age slower than others, which is bs, sorry. If you dislike stereotypes then be consistent with it and stay neutral.
I'm not saying Caucasian traits are masculine, I'm saying they have some features that are considered more masculine than feminine. Studies actually show that hyper feminine faces and hyper masculine faces are actually considered unattractive and that the best looking looking ones are the ones that look "average" (mathematically not average looking) aka they have a a mixture of both.

Here are some links

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/feb/cover#.UgaAaFPk_aM

http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/news-cms/news/ ... 7&id=41272

http://petapixel.com/2013/05/28/what-av ... an-beauty/

Also I never said that Asians age slower, that's a ridiculous statement to make- the laws of physics and time apply to everyone equally. I simply said they tend to look younger than other races as they get older because they are genetically predisposed to have fuller fat pads on their cheeks. Everyone has full fat pads when they are young, most obviously from a babys chubby cheeks, as people get older they lose the fat on their faces and it ages them because then they look gaunt- Asian's tend to retain the fat on their faces longer so they look younger for their age which is beneficial as you get older. There is science that correlates this.


As for the plastic surgery examples, I'm not sure what your point is-- if you're trying to imply that's what an average asian person looks like (with a flat forehead and a humped nose) I wouldn't say those are good examples to choose from since the reason they are getting plastic surgery is because they don't look like everyone else and that they are trying to fit in. In other words the patients shown on those sites are specifically "unaverage" and they're chosen so the surgeon can display the most dramatic results.

I did my best not to stereotype and I'm not sure where I did (I mentioned stereotypes but I never implied it was a personal belief, I'm obviously aware that they are stereotypes and there not something that can be applied to everyone) but it's hard to speak on such broad subjects as race, culture and appearance without making generalizations.

You seem to be looking for an argument when there doesn't have to be one, I'm not sure where you were getting the idea where I was "praising" asians and putting down caucasians"? If anything the point I was trying to make is the world is a diverse place of cultural exchange, and that there is no ONE standard for beauty and that there is beauty in every culture.
i actually think not all asians have those type of cheeks. a lot of eastern descent asians have flat cheeks or low cheekbones (i.e. chinese, koreans), which eventually make them appear OLDER than they are... but they still look younger compare to caucasians as their features aren't as sharp.

some caucasians have high cheekbones, which is ideal in industries such as in fashion/modelling (applies to asians as well, i mean look at the asian supermodels, i doubt it's all makeup contouring). but because of their other features, it makes them look older. and face it, its also lifestyle and food. all the asian medicine/tea/veggies, it helps. compare to western's burgers and beers (american stereotype but you get my drift)

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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HMM888 wrote:Yeah I actually do agree that she seems ashamed.. Maybe I am misinterpreting her but I guess she is not well spoken enough to defend herself/convince me otherwise...
i think she mentioned before that her "look" is similar to japanese street fashion, which is also probably the basis of ullzang. but i dont see it any where close to it. i mean these people who are really into the japan/korean pop culture, they really follow it (fashion, film, books, etc). it's a lifestyle, not just a look. she hates korean entertainment. doesnt support much others. she appears more of a bleached blonde bimbo, or rainbow rather.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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HMM888 wrote:
Also I never said that Asians age slower, that's a ridiculous statement to make- the laws of physics and time apply to everyone equally. I simply said they tend to look younger than other races as they get older because they are genetically predisposed to have fuller fat pads on their cheeks. Everyone has full fat pads when they are young, most obviously from a babys chubby cheeks, as people get older they lose the fat on their faces and it ages them because then they look gaunt- Asian's tend to retain the fat on their faces longer so they look younger for their age which is beneficial as you get older. There is science that correlates this.
That's not science but a huge stereotype to me. (Scientific studies are not always trustworthy anyways and can be manipulated). According to that logic Caucasians, who have the highest number of overweight people, look younger than other races as they get older because they have fat cheeks.
I didn't say the people in the pictures were average or anything, I only used them for demonstration because you said Caucasians tend to have flat foreheads and nose humps when it happens to every race. You also said Caucasians tend to have angular faces and that's also an unfair generalization.
This woman is one of many who desired a smaller face shape and even though she had full cheeks before she looks younger after the surgery.
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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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bottle111 wrote:
HMM888 wrote:
Also I never said that Asians age slower, that's a ridiculous statement to make- the laws of physics and time apply to everyone equally. I simply said they tend to look younger than other races as they get older because they are genetically predisposed to have fuller fat pads on their cheeks. Everyone has full fat pads when they are young, most obviously from a babys chubby cheeks, as people get older they lose the fat on their faces and it ages them because then they look gaunt- Asian's tend to retain the fat on their faces longer so they look younger for their age which is beneficial as you get older. There is science that correlates this.
That's not science but a huge stereotype to me. (Scientific studies are not always trustworthy anyways and can be manipulated). According to that logic Caucasians, who have the highest number of overweight people, look younger than other races as they get older because they have fat cheeks.
I didn't say the people in the pictures were average or anything, I only used them for demonstration because you said Caucasians tend to have flat foreheads and nose humps when it happens to every race. You also said Caucasians tend to have angular faces and that's also an unfair generalization.
This woman is one of many who desired a smaller face shape and even though she had full cheeks before she looks younger after the surgery.
Image

Sorry but you are just arguing semantics here and being willfully ignorant. Science can be manipulated and the results are not always accurate but you have to look at the pool of data regarding the information and the sources it comes from.

In this instance we're not talking murky pseudoscience here or some new discovery, facial biology and the differences in bone, tissue developement and fat deposits between different races have been studied and the differences recorded in numerous respected medical (plastic surgery) journals around the world, including the fact about Asians tending to keep their fat pads for longer, is there some reason these various hospitals and medical journals in different countries would conspire to make that fact up? What benefit would they derive from doing that?

Also Caucasians do tend to have angular faces, I'm not sure how this is "unfair" to anyone since it does not mean whether a person is attractive or unattractive. Do you realize how many models have angular faces?

Yes flat foreheads and nose humps do happen to every race, but certain facial features happen more often in some races than it does in others. What is your point? Again genetics and its correlations with race do influence your facial features and bone structure, however no one can realistically say that such statements will cover every single person of that race every single time-- that is impossible obviously-- but that doesn't mean such statements can't reasonably apply to a majority or minority.

As for the lady in the photos above, she got a mandible (v line) reduction and zygomatic (cheekbone) reduction. Please google it. It means the jaw bone which flares out near the ears at the base of the skull is reduced, making the jawline seem slimmer from an frontal view as well. Her cheekbones (the bone structure near her orbital eye socket) were also reduced. The fat pads, aka the apples on the front of her cheeks, were not touched.

What do you mean Caucasians have the highest number of overweight people? Do you actually mean American since Europeans are known for being healthy conscious and slim?

First of all the term Caucasian and American are NOT interchangeable. American is a nationality, not a race, it denotes a place- nothing else. I can't really say anything about the genetics of an American since America is a cultural melting pot with many different races.. :|

As for your argument about "caucasians" being fatter with fuller fuller cheeks and therefore looking younger, that's apples to oranges. When everyone, including me, were making posts about beauty and race I thought it was obvious we were all mentally comparing people of different races who were relatively equal in terms of other aspects (AGE AND WEIGHT) because that was most objective way of comparing it. Let me break it down for you since it is hard to understand (I thought this was implied..)

For an average person of Asian descent (average weight, average age, average income) compared to an average person of Caucasian descent (of comparable and equal average weight, age, income) the person of Asian descent will more likely retain the fat pads in their cheeks longer due to their genetics.

If your argument about "Caucasians" (you mean Americans?) would the poorest countries the oldest looking because they are most gaunt and have the least food? :|

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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If your argument about "Caucasians" (you mean Americans?) would the poorest countries the oldest looking because they are most gaunt and have the least food? :|
Edit: If your argument about "Caucasians" (you mean Americans?) being younger looking due to having fuller cheeks from being fat would the poorest countries be the oldest looking because they are most gaunt and have the least food? :|

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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^ it wasn't even an argument, I said myself that it doesn't make sense. Geez, calm down. And no, I don't only mean Americans, it applies to Europeans as well. Germans are very unhealthy, too. Statistic claim that about 50% of adult Germans are overweight.
HMM888 wrote:Yes flat foreheads and nose humps do happen to every race, but certain facial features happen more often in some races than it does in others. What is your point? Again genetics and its correlations with race do influence your facial features and bone structure, however no one can realistically say that such statements will cover every single person of that race every single time-- that is impossible obviously-- but that doesn't mean such statements can't reasonably apply to a majority or minority.
Yeah, I agree with that actually. Certain features happen more in certain races. Just like small appearing eyes happen more often to Asians than to others. I guess it's because of a lot of skin around the eye and, compared to any other race, a low nose. Or just like dark skin happens more to Black people than others.
That's why those most common features are associated with the races. and obviously there are going to be exceptions but these most common features are going to be the typical racial traits.
You say angular faces and whatnot occur more in Caucasians but at the same time you say
HMM888 wrote:The features that Asian's have plastic surgery to get are NOT Caucasian because they do not occur in Caucasians any more often than they do in any other other race
Umm, eye creases definitely occur more in the Caucasian or Black race or any other race more often than in the Asian race. Higher noses, too.

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Re: Xiaxue Part 3

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